Mooney for Flight School or Part 135?

[Mooney217RN]

On prior occasion, I have posted about the joys of my Mooney ownership, having been fortunate enough to own 2 over the course of 20+ years.  I am on #2 now, my O3, which I love.

For work, I own a number of FBO's, properties, airport properties, and oddly enough, a 135 operation and a flight school, both of which I am an absentee owner of.  I hate to admit that, but it is the truth.

In any event, we sold an aircraft we weren't using earlier this week.  It went to a good buyer and left the hangar this morning heading to its new home in Florida.  We have to replace it to avoid a taxable consequence.

Our flight school is in serious need of a new aircraft; we fly the wings off of what we have.  I wouldn't mind putting the new aircraft on our certificate either.  I'd like to hear the opinion of others on the thought of placing a J Model into service as a trainer and on possibly on certificate.  I think a long body would be too much, and an E or F would be too old.  Then again, when I went through my primary flight training last century, our flight school had an E Model which I flew in flight training.  So who am I to be a critic?

Any feedback would be appreciated.  If we go the Mooney route, we will offer flight training in it for those interested.

[ZuluZulu]

Coincidentally, there is an AT for sale!

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20J+201&listing_id=2379906&s-type=aircraft

[MikeOH]

I think an E, F, or J would be ideal.

I rented a B for nearly a decade and it's still on the line: http://duboisaviation.com/rental/

[carusoam]

There is an F being used as a rental in TX...

In NJ, an MSC has a rental M20J on the line...

As far as... is it a good idea?

Yes! For serious renters...

No! for the guys that just want to try it a few times...
 

The NJ situation had to replace two planes over the years....

• Low altitude flight over water...
• High DA, botched GA...

 

M20J AT(s) were built to be Aviation Trainers.... focussed on the IR and above...

PP thoughts only, not a plane renter...

Best regards,

-a-

[Niko182]

I'd say any mooney without a 550 or a 520, or a turbo is the way to go. Pilots that only fly rentals don't have the knowledge or the know how, on how to properly operate an engine. Age isn't that big of a factor. most people are learning in cessna 172's and PA28's from the 70s anyway.

[Eight8Victor]

Our local flight school has been using an “E” for years now. Seems to fly often.

[cferr59]

I was based at Robbinsville for many years and they did not have a Mooney rental availble at the end of 2019.   I don't think the Sky Manor crash was DA related, simply a botched go around after a prop strike.  Mooney's may be more prone to this, but that was pilot error.  The Cape May crash could have occurred regardless of aircraft type.   Nothing about the Mooney makes it unrentable, but I would never rent mine!

[carusoam]

Cferr,

Good points...

I may have over simplified the discussion (mostly I don’t remember enough details)... The results unfortunately didn’t change...
 

I did however give enough detail so that the situation is very recognizable... if searching... 
 

Cold weather would have improved both of the botched go-around’s power, and lift...additional training would have been super helpful...

Proper training for GAs is a great idea for new Mooney pilots, as is speed and energy control... and stall recovery/avoidance techniques...

 

Not sure what one can do to keep from crashing into the wave tops.... other than select a higher altitude...

A low wing airplane probably isn’t the best for seeing the water out the window...
 

Plenty of video taken of the fly-by if somebody were to want to watch...

 

No humor intended, for these tragedies... just some details about renting Mooneys in NJ...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[Mooneymuscle56m]

A M20J is bulletproof, good for rentals and training. 

[201er]

2 hours ago, Mooneymuscle56m said:

A M20J is bulletproof, good for rentals and training. 

Except for the pucks, the tanks, low prop clearance, difficult to properly close door, difficulty in getting factory parts....

[ArtVandelay]

I asked a part 141 school about a leaseback program for a Mooney when I was looking to buy. The guy laughed at me. It was a short discussion.

[Jerry 5TJ]

In 2005-2007 I used to rent a Mooney Eagle from a Part 141 school on the opposite coast from me. They used it for commercial training.  

It was great for me as their insurance required 500 hours of retract and 100 hours of Mooney time to solo, so I was one of the very few renters.  “Want it for a week?  Sure, take it.” 

Then came 2008 and that school was no more.  The Mooney flew away.  

 

[the_elkhartian]

Are you wanting to rent it out to solo? Or use it for dual training?

Seems like insurance is going to be the limiting factor in renting out for solo renters...

As far as training, in$urance is probably going to be the limiting factor here too.  But in the age of Technologically Advanced Aircraft (TAA) there are no ratings that require any complex aircraft experience. That’s why there are 1,000 C172RG’s on the market. So other than vanity, there is no reason that someone would pay to train in an RG anything (for primary training). I guess there’s a small market of people that would be looking for complex endorsements, but people training to be pro pilots would just check that box in their multi engine training. 

[J Bird]

I did my IR training in a C model with Johnson Bar down in Ocala, Fl. 

[jlunseth]

Here is my O2. I took my PPL lessons in a series of Warriors, Archers and Skyhawks. After I got my PPL I rented a J from the same flight school. The J is also simple to fly except for one thing, it does not like to slow down. You could pull the throttle back on the Warriors, Archers or Skyhawks on final and they would drop like a rock to the tarmac. Try the same technique with the J and it will drop like a rock, finally, somewhere on the lift-off end of the runway. The J I flew felt very light. You had to have speed control in the downwind, even before the downwind, because you were not going to get it anywhere in the pattern if you did not already have it. The 231 I have will certainly drift a long way down the runway if I don’t have speed control, but it is a heavier aircraft and in a pinch it has speed brakes, so it is not exactly like early school planes I flew, but is more forgiving than the J.  That is the beauty and the beast of the J, you can practically forget about concepts like friction and drag. 

I did my Commercial in my 231 and there were some speed control issues there also. For one thing, you can’t just throttle back from a cruise setting to an approach setting and expect the aircraft to slow from 120 to 90 for you, not for quite a while.  Any lower speed setting you make, you have to give the aircraft a little time to slow down.  The Lazy 8’s took some learning because you have to learn to let the aircraft fall a little nose up rather than just point the nose over at the top and go down the slope. You will blow your airspeed at the bottom. It was a really good learning experience, but obviously one meant for advanced students with guidance from an instructor that knows the make and model, your instructor experienced with standard school planes is going to have to adapt.

The F would be a better choice I think. Simple to fly, not hard to maintain, plenty fast, but more forgiving of speed control sins. Students can get a Complex in it, but not an HP, but for that matter students can’t get an HP in a J either, must be over 200 HP and the J is at 200. You would have to go to an Ovation or one of the turbocharged models to be able to offer the HP, and there you would have quite a lot of aircraft that would require quite a lot of pilot skill. I would not recommend one of the turbocharged models, too much to learn, mixture control is completely different from an NA aircraft,  and too easy to hurt the engine.

If I were going to rent to students of varying abilities, the F is what I would do. If I were going to rent only to students with advance ability, working on a Commercial or an Instrument, then the J or Ovation.

[MarkD34M]

I think a decent J would be a great option for many renters / training choices.  I also believe it would expose many newly minted PPL holders to the benefits of a Mooney for travel and ownership. That is a good thing for the brand and for us as owners. We had a club locally that had three J models at one point and they flew quite often. 

[TNIndy]

An F or a J would be good. It's very difficult to find a Mooney to train in or rent. I suggest you advertise whichever you decide on. People that are considering purchasing a Mooney have limited options for training or just finding something to try out.