Concord battey

[takair]

7 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

Did you treat the same: trickle charge, desulphate, and of course with wet cells make sure to occasionally top off with distilled water. I think the maintenance free is definitely an advantage.

So, it IS a little complicated.  For the first 4 years I kept it plugged into a battery minder with desulfator....all the time.  Then I moved to a hangar with no electricity but a generator.  So, for the past year it has been on a solar battery tender.  I throw the battery Minder on it when  the generator is running for an extended period to desulfate.  It’s sealed so no maintenance.  I am thinking of replacing it at this annual whether it needs it or not.  Ref the Gill, I never had a Minder on it...so it is not 1:1 comparison, but when the last three failed they happened without warning and between maintenance intervals.

[jaylw314]

9 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Battery capacity is lower in the FL because the temperature is lowered.  

The temperature of the two batteries in the un-heated tail is about equal to the OAT.  

At -20 C the capacity is about 1/2 what it is at +20 C.   

-20 C sounds nice in a lot of places around the country right now

I'd point out, though, that the battery does charge and overcharge while the plane's electrical system is running, and that obviously does heat up the battery to some degree, but I have no idea by how much.  I suspect (but have no data to show) it is enough to keep the battery internals from becoming cold-soaked, and once you have an alternator failure and it starts powering the plane's systems, it will warm up further.

[DonMuncy]

22 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

One of the reasons I avoid the battery minder. When the battery starts to get weak I can tell from slower and slower starts in the am. Don’t want to find out away from home it was only starting due to sitting on the minder.  
 

-Robert 

I still keep mine on a Battery Minder, but your point is well taken. One would be well advised to leave the BM off for a while periodically to check, or do a capacity test regularly. They are supposed to be capacity checked at annual, but I do not think most IAs check them.

[PT20J]

2 hours ago, DonMuncy said:

I still keep mine on a Battery Minder, but your point is well taken. One would be well advised to leave the BM off for a while periodically to check, or do a capacity test regularly. They are supposed to be capacity checked at annual, but I do not think most IAs check them.

Except for the rare case where an ICA includes aircraft limitations changes, ICAs are like service bulletins: optional for part 91 operations. Most IAs don't bother with them at annual because CBs are always complaining about how much the inspection costs . However, just like service bulletins, it's a good idea for the owner to read the ICAs for installed equipment and decide which are important. Lubricating the speed brakes is one that commonly gets ignored

Skip

[carusoam]

Note for TLS...

There are certain products that are deserving of disparagement...

There are two around here that have made the dishonorable mention list...

1) The Gill battery... where

• I bought one for my M20C every other year.
• It lived outside, and never saw a charger....
• Then I had two in my M20R...
• It lived indoors, and had a special Gill charger....
• So... I bought a battery every year.... after that.
• 10+ years and no quality improvement...
• result: I bought a pair of Concordes, years ago...

2) The Champion Spark Plug...

• Quality isn’t in the name...
• The internal resistance changes over time until it just fails to operate...
• You have to be a member of some online forum to find out why it fails, and how to test for it...
• 10+ years and no quality improvement...
• result: MSers buy the other brand of spark plugs...

 

The really cool thing... Gill was bought by my favorite engine manufacturer... a while ago....
 

No suppliers are perfect... but 10years of imperfection has people looking for anything better... including buying things from Asia....

Maybe the new ownership is having a positive effect...

Keep reporting what you see... it would be nice to have two competing resources for good batteries...

Best regards,

-a-

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

Note for TLS...

There are certain products that are deserving of disparagement...

There are two around here that have made the dishonorable mention list...

1) The Gill battery... where

• I bought one for my M20C every other year.
• It lived outside, and never saw a charger....
• Then I had two in my M20R...
• It lived indoors, and had a special Gill charger....
• So... I bought a battery every year.... after that.
• 10+ years and no quality improvement...
• result: I bought a pair of Concordes, years ago...

2) The Champion Spark Plug...

• Quality isn’t in the name...
• The internal resistance changes over time until it just fails to operate...
• You have to be a member of some online forum to find out why it fails, and how to test for it...
• 10+ years and no quality improvement...
• result: MSers buy the other brand of spark plugs...

 

The really cool thing... Gill was bought by my favorite engine manufacturer... a while ago....
 

No suppliers are perfect... but 10years of imperfection has people looking for anything better... including buying things from Asia....

Maybe the new ownership is having a positive effect...

Keep reporting what you see... it would be nice to have two competing resources for good batteries...

Best regards,

-a-

Gill makes great flooded cell batteries. Its sealed batteries weren't so great. I think they quit making them until they re-engineered them. Maybe they are good now.

Champion had problems with resistors in its spark plugs. They are now redesigned and are probably just as good as Tempest.

Tempest fine wires had problems shedding electrodes. I'm thinking about buying fine wires when I install a Surefly mag. Should I buy Tempest?

Things change. Companies learn. Products improve. But people have long memories when a bad product cost them money. 

Skip

[RobertGary1]

Just now, PT20J said:

Gill makes great flooded cell batteries.

Skip

Is that like saying they make great buggy whips? They do a good job with the stuff so old people don’t buy it now?

 

-Robert 

[PT20J]

On 7/29/2020 at 8:15 PM, rotorman said:

The battery on my 20J, 12v,  is always on an aircraft battery minder when in the hangar.  After 4 years since new, I find that when I put power to the aircraft before starting the Volts low light comes as soon I switch on the master.  Also, after a flight of 1.5 hours the volts low light comes on shortly after I shut the engine down. Is 4 years a reasonable service life for this battery? 

Reviewing this thread, there's a lot of good info, but I don't think we answered your question. Let's see if I can break it down:

1. The purpose of the low voltage annunciation is to alert you that the alternator is not charging the battery. It is set to about 12.5 volts so that it should flash when you are running on battery power only. Thus, the indications you mention are normal.

2. The way to tell the charge state of the battery is by measuring the voltage at the terminals with no load on the battery. The 11.7 volts you measured seems low, but that's with the master on so there is some load and thus you can't really tell anything from that measurement.

3. The only way to tell for certain if the battery needs replacing is to do a capacity test. Most people just wait until it is so worn out that the starter is sluggish. That may be OK if you only fly VFR in uncongested airspace and don't mind the inconvenience of getting stranded at a strange airport. But, if you really need the battery to run stuff for an hour or so after an alternator failure, you should do a capacity test at least annually.

Skip

[PT20J]

4 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

Is that like saying they make great buggy whips? They do a good job with the stuff so old people don’t buy it now?

 

-Robert 

No, the point is that they had a great product and had difficulty with newer technology. That's very common. Sometimes companies recover and sometimes they don't. HP made oscilloscopes but the triggering circuit was really bad. An engineer left HP and started Tektronix with an idea for a better triggering circuit. Tek scopes were so much better that HP got out of the oscilloscope business for a few years. When they came back they had a competitive product. So, you have to keep looking at the current product offerings and not live in the past.

[PTK]

On 7/29/2020 at 11:15 PM, rotorman said:

The battery on my 20J, 12v,  is always on an aircraft battery minder when in the hangar.  After 4 years since new, I find that when I put power to the aircraft before starting the Volts low light comes as soon I switch on the master.  Also, after a flight of 1.5 hours the volts low light comes on shortly after I shut the engine down. Is 4 years a reasonable service life for this battery? 

If it has always been on a battery minder in the hangar, 4 years is too short and outside the norm for Concord. Definitely check your voltage regulator to be sure its not overcharging it. That will boil the electrolyte and shorten battery life. Monitor closely bus voltage and adjust as necessary to keep it tight to within a few tenths of 14 volts. Also temperature affects battery life. Are you using the temp sensor with the battery minder? That’s the only way to regulate the voltage output of the battery minder and to protect against over or under charging your battery over ranging temperatures. As has been mentioned, capacity test at annual is the determining factor weather to change battery or not. I think Concord’s publishes 8 years life expectancy and recommends to change it when its at <85% rated capacity. To give you a data point, I keep my Concord on a battery minder plugged in year round when my airplane is in the hangar. I replaced  it at last annual after ~12 years.

[jetdriven]

We had a Concorde battery go dead after about two years. As it turns out, the alternator had abad diode, which will kill your battery trying to charge it with AC

[ArtVandelay]

We had a Concorde battery go dead after about two years. As it turns out, the alternator had abad diode, which will kill your battery trying to charge it with AC

How would that show up on a digital voltmeter (ie engine monitor)?

[jetdriven]

it doesnt. but it manifests sometimes as a faint whine in the headset, that the amplitude is related to the alternator load and the frequency is tied to the engine RPM.   A voltmeter set to AC can sometimes catch it, but many digital voltmeters have a smoothing circuit that glosses this over, a plain old 3$ analog needle AC voltmeter is better here. Also, a cheap oscilloscope will work best.

[bradp]

My first Gill went 2 years.  My first concorde went 8.  I'm on my second concorde as of april.  

[MikeOH]

I've had my plane for nearly 3 years. It had a Concorde put in 4 years before that.  Still going strong after 7 years.

I wish my car batteries lasted that long!

[Jim Peace]

5+ years on a sealed concord battery.....never used a battery minder.....sometimes go over 2 weeks without flying

[xavierde]

My G-242 needs to be replaced and I want to get a sealed battery. Reading this, it seems Concorde is a no-brainer but I wonder if anyone is actually using a new sealed battery from Gill?

[Hank]

3 minutes ago, xavierde said:

My G-242 needs to be replaced and I want to get a sealed battery. Reading this, it seems Concorde is a no-brainer but I wonder if anyone is actually using a new sealed battery from Gill?

Someone mentioned it last week and was shouted down by many people with poor Gill performance history. But those weren't sealed Gills or even new Gills.

If you buy one, please post your experience. It's always nice to have good choices, but right niw there isn't one.

[carusoam]

There are a few mentions of sealed gills...

There was one pro sealed gill...

There is plenty of harsh responses towards a manufacturer that has foisted its crummy product on the public for years....

Things could be turning around with gill... it became part of the TCM conglomerate not so long ago...

 

If looking for the one good pirep for gill... it’s in here somewhere....

https://mooneyspace.com/search/?q=Sealed gill&quick=1

Found it...   

 

Best regards,

-a-

[tls pilot]

My first post on the new Gill LT Sealed Battery 7243-14 was in June 2015 (it was in the Bravo Forum)

These batteries perform extremely well and have provided me with excellent service. 

Far better than the wet G243 or the first Gill sealed battery.  

We gave reports on a yearly or so basis on that same post.

 

Today (August 2020), the batteries are still installed in the aircraft, performing

well on starts and capacity checks.

 

Please keep in mind these are the 24 volt batteries, 14Ah sealed Gill LT. (7243-14)

In my experience, Most 12 volt batteries will last and perform longer than the bigger 24 volt batteries. 

Thus far, I am pleased with the 24 volt Gill LT 7243-14 batteries.

 

As a side note, Gill has introduced a new “super capacity” LT sealed 7243-16 battery (16Ah).

I have no experience with the -16 (7243-16).

 

 

 

 

[carusoam]

When considering batteries for the Long Body....

There is an extra capacity battery that can weigh a few more pounds.... Than the standard battery...

Better than having the dead weight of a Charlie weight back there...  

Thanks for sharing the extra details, TLS!

Best regards,

-a-

[Jim Peace]

today my concord RG35AXC battery showed a hint of weakness during start, first time ever.

It was installed 5.5 years and 562 hours ago....I estimate it has well over 700 starts.

Never been on a tender and last three years plane kept in hangar in Florida.

Flown usually once per week but sometimes went 3 plus weeks with no flying.

I guess I can keep milking it and it will last another year with fingers crossed but I like 100% dispatch reliability so today I drove to Chief and bought a new one.  

 

 

 

[ArtVandelay]

today my concord RG35AXC battery showed a hint of weakness during start, first time ever.
It was installed 5.5 years and 562 hours ago....I estimate it has well over 700 starts.
Never been on a tender and last three years plane kept in hangar in Florida.
Flown usually once per week but sometimes went 3 plus weeks with no flying.
I guess I can keep milking it and it will last another year with fingers crossed but I like 100% dispatch reliability so today I drove to Chief and bought a new one.  
 
 
 

If that doesn’t fix the slow start it might be time for a new starter.

[carusoam]

Starter relays are a good check… they don’t age very well… no cleaning, no OH…. They slowly die…often increasing resistance as they go…

Although one around here broke some plastic part inside the relay… and killed it quickly….  
 

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic…

Best regards,

-a-

[Ragsf15e]

12 hours ago, Jim Peace said:

today my concord RG35AXC battery showed a hint of weakness during start, first time ever.

It was installed 5.5 years and 562 hours ago....I estimate it has well over 700 starts.

Never been on a tender and last three years plane kept in hangar in Florida.

Flown usually once per week but sometimes went 3 plus weeks with no flying.

I guess I can keep milking it and it will last another year with fingers crossed but I like 100% dispatch reliability so today I drove to Chief and bought a new one.  

 

 

 

Does it get capacity checked at annual? Good chance it’s below capacity mins if it’s starting noticeably slower.  Do you fly ifr?  Possibly worth knowing, possibly not.  Up to you.