Mark

[Mark S.]

I'm looking at a 64 Mooney M20C (Ranger 21).  Has been sitting in a hangar for nearly 5 years and is out of annual.  Good points-Was repainted in 2002 and has excellent paint. NDH. Pucks were replaced in 2005.  85 hours since POH.  Interior is original but very nice.  3300 hours TTSN.  Window glass and windshield replaced in 2005.  Bad points-Avionics are complete but old.  2 Narco Mk 12's, Narco 150 transponder, older AP, Narco audio panel, old Garmin GPS 150XL, etc. Not ADS out equipped.  Ugly-Engine has 1450 hours on Lycoming 360 with ECI cylinders.  AD requires replacement in 350 more hours.  Don't know a lot about Mooneys, but this looks interesting.  Annual could be expensive due to non-flying status of 5 years. Price looks like somewher around $32-35K. Help, any comments.  Thanks

Edited April 5, 2020 by Mark S.
left item out

[KLRDMD]

That's a maximum of a $10k airplane in my opinion. Free is probably reasonable. It could easily take $50k to get it back into a safe flying condition and it won't be worth $60k then.

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, Mark.

There are going to be a lot of planes for sale that are flying.

There are many museum pieces as well...

Are you looking to fly a Mooney, or curate one?   

 

Planes that don’t fly often Enough, often need engine overhauls before they fly again...

 

A good paint job, may cost 20grand...   see if you can get a Complete plane to go with it...

Enjoy the hunt.

Best regards,

-a-

[hammdo]

Find a flying one. That is going to need a lot of work for sure. Depending on your budget, you can find many good ones if you’re patient...

-Don

[MooneyMitch]

16 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Welcome aboard, Mark.

There are going to be a lot of planes for sale that are flying.

There are many museum pieces as well...

Are you looking to fly a Mooney, or curate one?   

 

Planes that don’t fly often Enough, often need engine overhauls before they fly again...

 

A good paint job, may cost 20grand...   see if you can get a Complete plane to go with it...

Enjoy the hunt.

Best regards,

-a-

Sound advice Mark.  Welcome to all knowing Mooneyspace.

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, Mark S. said:

I'm looking at a 64 Mooney M20C (Ranger 21).  Has been sitting in a hangar for nearly 5 years and is out of annual.  Good points-Was repainted in 2002 and has excellent paint. NDH. Pucks were replaced in 2005.  85 hours since POH.  Interior is original but very nice.  3300 hours TTSN.  Window glass and windshield replaced in 2005.  Bad points-Avionics are complete but old.  2 Narco Mk 12's, Narco 150 transponder, older AP, Narco audio panel, old Garmin GPS 150XL, etc. Not ADS out equipped.  Ugly-Engine has 1450 hours on Lycoming 360 with ECI cylinders.  AD requires replacement in 350 more hours.  Don't know a lot about Mooneys, but this looks interesting.  Annual could be expensive due to non-flying status of 5 years. Price looks like somewher around $32-35K. Help, any comments.  Thanks

Run Forrest, run! (I guess it should be Run Mark, run!)

[gsxrpilot]

If you're a licensed A&P/IA, retired with lots of free time, and looking for a year long project, then it's a maybe. But if you gave $10K you'll still be upside down when you get it flying. And that's if you do all the work yourself.

There are some nice C's available right now in the $50K range that are turn key and currently flying. 

[oldguyscanfly]

Well, I bought my 1965 E a year ago, $43K. 3600TT, 1020 SMOH, flown 18 hours in the last year, fresh (at time of sale) annual, old avionics and "shotgun" panel. In my view it was a fairly well preserved bird.

I'm now into it for almost another $40K, avionics, new metal panel, assorted maintenance items, and still don't have an autopilot or engine monitor.

In retrospect, could have taken the $83K and gotten a lot newer plane. But I have enjoyed the journey, and its a "forever" plane, so don't regret the purchase.

Boils down to you mission and goal for your purchase, whether you want a "jump in and fly", or don't mind a "project" plane. Carefully consider the total cost to return it to airworthy condition, add that to the purchase price, then look for planes in that price range. Might surprise you.

Either way, I think that asking range is too high for that condition.

 

[chriscalandro]

Asking people on the internet the value of a machine they’ve never even seen a picture of yields these results you see here. 
 

The only way to know what it is is to look at it. Depending on your situation, who you know, and what you know how to do it could be a worthwhile project. 

if you insist on taking your Mooney to a top Mooney specialist because you think their the only ones that can do oil changes, this won’t be for you. 

If it’s something you aren’t afraid of then there is no reason not to go look at it. Avionics’s isn’t hard if you can read a pin out and crimp a wire. Finding someone to sign it off might be a different story. 
 

that price is high. 

Edited April 5, 2020 by chriscalandro

[bonal]

Welcome Mark, some will say run away and could be great advise. However there is no way to be certain of what expenses lay around the corner on any purchase of a used airplane. My own experience was also a 64 and tragically its owner was killed in a GA crash and the family did not want to keep the plane but would not permit it be flown out for a PPI. I was unable to find anyone to do inspection where it was based and ended up buying it without much more than a test flight which is a story in itself. Over the first few years it took quite a bit of investment to get it into shape and at the time of purchase I had no idea how much it had been flown in the past year but it was still in annual. My point is that this airplane compared to all the different posts folks here on MS that have or are having issues that have kept them grounded my dispatch reliability rivals almost anyone's. A PPI is a good idea but still not a sure fire way to say you won't be spending lots of money or at least more than normal, whatever that is. If the airframe is without corrosion (lots of posts on what to look for) you might find this to be a good choice but be certain you will have your work cut out for you getting it back in shape. Since I had no intention of becoming an IFR pilot the avionics were not a big issue but if you are planning on instrument rated then this plane is not a good choice. After its all said and done I could have purchased a very nice updated E or F with a low time engine for what I have invested in ours but then who's to say weather that plane might not suffer a catastrophic engine failure. 

Good luck and don't be a one hit wonder here on MS. 

Not a professional anything, just ramblings of thought as we observe this stupid stay at home advisory

[MikeOH]

While I gave my smart-ass answer earlier, I'll throw in my 'shopping advice' based on my embarrassingly long search for my first and only, so far,  airplane.  The advantage of my long search was that I looked at a ton of Mooneys!  By the time I saw the one I bought, I was pretty good at ruling out the dogs.  Which in my price range (<$40K three years ago), were the majority, I'm afraid.  I was looking for an airplane that I could fly and enjoy; NOT a work in progress.

So, in my OPINION, in order, here are my criteria in order of importance:

1) Recent use:  I didn't even bother with a plane that was even 1 year out of annual.  I wanted to see a minimum of 50 hours/year for the last 3-5 years.  Meeting this criteria is harder than you would think.  Many planes just sit.  BAD BAD BAD!

2) Hangared: You can tell if the plane has been hangared for most of its recent past. Outside is just plain hard on equipment.  Yes, it can be successfully done with proper maintenance and upkeep.  But, frankly, in this price range outside planes are not going to have been cared for that well.  At least that was my experience.  Hangared planes also are an indicator that the owner was willing/had the money to maintain the plane.

3) Maintenance: What do the logs reflect? One line annuals, or a detailed list of items addressed? How about between annuals, any entries, or nothing between annuals being done? Pull the cowl. Clean, neat, hoses in good shape, etc.  Or, chicken wire and bubble-gum?  Again, did the owner have the coin to properly maintain the plane...or did it sit outside for a long period with little money spent before the owner got tired of the expense?  I found this to be VERY common, unfortunately.

4) Equipment: Does it have avionics you can live with?  If not, you are looking at HUGE money (relative to this price range) that you will NOT get back when you sell.

 5) Paint/Interior: Don't be too picky!  You will pay a premium for perfect paint and interior. More important, you may pass on an otherwise excellent plane. Further, the interior is something you can do yourself.  Just decide if you can live with paint condition and scheme.  As long as the paint wasn't badly oxidized (unlikely if the plane meets criteria 2) and/or really badly chipped I was happy.

6) Engine: Yup, last on the list.  If criteria #1, and #3, are met you are likely to be able to fly for a while without serious engine issues regardless of TSMOH.  Second, the price is/can be negotiated based on engine hours; buy right, and engine hours aren't that critical. I was actually nervous with planes advertised with low TSMOH; did they just do a cheap overhaul to sell?  In my case, I bought with an already over TBO engine (and, priced accordingly); that was two and half years, and 200 hours ago.  The previous owner had flown 100 hours per year (this is a very uncommonly high usage for a single owner pleasure plane) for 13 years.  TBO is somewhat arbitrary; do you rebuild your car engine at a certain number of miles, or on condition?  Regardless, engines are a big unknown and you should be financially prepared to overhaul at any time (including right after purchase) or you will end up with a plane sitting, costing you money (especially hangared) and devaluing.  Honestly, that fact was one of the reasons I shopped for so long; to be in a position that I could afford the $30K a proper overhaul would cost.

Good luck!

[Skates97]

2 hours ago, Mark S. said:

I'm looking at a 64 Mooney M20C (Ranger 21).  Has been sitting in a hangar for nearly 5 years and is out of annual.  Good points-Was repainted in 2002 and has excellent paint. NDH. Pucks were replaced in 2005.  85 hours since POH.  Interior is original but very nice.  3300 hours TTSN.  Window glass and windshield replaced in 2005.  Bad points-Avionics are complete but old.  2 Narco Mk 12's, Narco 150 transponder, older AP, Narco audio panel, old Garmin GPS 150XL, etc. Not ADS out equipped.  Ugly-Engine has 1450 hours on Lycoming 360 with ECI cylinders.  AD requires replacement in 350 more hours.  Don't know a lot about Mooneys, but this looks interesting.  Annual could be expensive due to non-flying status of 5 years. Price looks like somewher around $32-35K. Help, any comments.  Thanks

Lot's of good advice so far. My personal opinion is that is too much for that plane. I'll offer what I did which have offered to others before. I kept an excel sheet with every plane I could find on all the usual sites that fit my price range. I was in the $30-50k range, but $50k was a stretch that I didn't really want to do. I kept track of the ones that came on the market, ones that sold, when prices dropped, and by how much, listed the tail # and serial #'s which made it easy to search for information online about them. I rated the paint and panel on a scale of 1-10 and listed TTSN, TSMOH, Prop Time and last overhaul, listing of the avionics in them, date of last annual, really anything in the ads that I could use to try and put a value on the plane. Just took a look at my old file and I had a total of 43 planes on it, all C's-F's. 

After a few months you start to get a feel for where the market is.

[gsxrpilot]

That's quality advice from both @MikeOH and @Skates97. 

I've done the same spreadsheet as Richard for both of the Mooneys I've purchased. It gives you a good feel for the market. If you know the market, it's not difficult to buy an airplane, fly it for a few years, and sell it for the same price you paid for it. But you have to buy one that doesn't need much of anything and has been well maintained. On the other hand you can expect to get back less then $0.25 on the dollar for money you spend catching up poor maintenance or upgrading avionics, panel, paint, interior, etc. So the best money is on buying one that's flying and can continue flying.

I'll also echo Mike's advice to put engine a ways down the list. But an engine that has been sitting has to be priced as runout and requiring an overhaul. 

And in my book, I like a nice paint job, but I wouldn't pay anything in the purchase price for one. If I'm gonna pay for a new paint job, I'd rather pick out the colors instead of paying for your color choice.

[0TreeLemur]

See my post just now in this thread.  PM me if you have any questions.

 

[carusoam]

An M20C....   AKA Mark 21...

A Mark21 for Mark...

Could be destiny...!

-a-

[1964-M20E]

First and foremost if you are really interested in this plane get a good pre-buy inspection (PPI) make sure the air frame is good and has no plane killing corrosion. 

I personally like the 64 models I had an E model years ago.

Having not seen the plane but just to start I would think it should be more in the $25k range.

Once you have a god air frame you can make it into whatever type of plane you want it to be.

Base your offer on and deduct some or most of the costs to handle these:

1. Overhaul the engine in a couple of years.  Have the cash reserves to take care of a filed overhaul with new cam and lifters now if the need arises.
2. Adding ADSB out
3. New cylinders minus some for 350 hours left
4. Any airworthy issues found during the PPI

[mike20papa]

In annual I wouldn't offer half what is being asked, not a nickle more.  That old bird (even if it glitters) will take you to the cleaners.  I'd keep looking.  Old radios, old motor .. no telling what else.  Find a Mooney someone has adored, not abandoned.   They're out there, especially now.

[Nukemzzz]

November 2019 I purchased my 66' M20E.  It had sat for 2yrs, but was in-annual, and I agreed to pay $30k for it from my sister knowing it was a bad financial decision.  There was many reasons for this that I won't go in to.  Prior to the 2yrs sitting in the hangar it was flying on a regular basis.  It flew fine the day I bought it, log books looked good, and the plane looked pretty good on a casual inspection.

Since then I have spent 80hrs personally working on it and spent around $5k so far just to get in a condition I was comfortable flying after closer inspection.  I don't know yet if the engine is going to make it (300hr TSMOH but sat for two years) and it has ran for only 20hrs since I've had it.  Every time I fly it something else comes up.  On the last 2hr flight the flap control cable broke.  Looks like the front seal or the prop is leaking pretty bad now.  Nose gear has too much play.  Lord bushings are worn out.  I still have a long list of things that need to be done at the next annual...and I won't be surprised if I need to swing the engine  because of tappet spalling which seems to come with a $25k price tag.  Still, I've enjoyed working on it strangely (half of the 80hrs was in an unheated hangar in Indiana) and I'm proud that I'm keeping this vintage bird in the air.  This was only feasible since I have some disposable income, I'm capable of doing my own work, and I have an awesome local shop that keeps a close eye on me (expect $100hr with very long wait times if someone else is going to do the work for you).

IMO: Since I've not seen the plane I really can't tell if it will need as much work as mine.  5yrs in the hangar is concerning for the engine in particular.  If it is in roughly the same condition as mine, buy it only if you want do the world a service by getting this vintage plane back in the air and you can afford the time and money required for someone else to do the work, or you have the means and time to work on it yourself as a hobby.  If you decide to save it, perhaps get the owner to pitch-in to this charitable venture by assuming it needs an engine rebuild and start cancelling other activities for a year if you plan on doing some of your own work.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Nukemzzz