Icy landing

[larrynimmo]

Well to celebrate my birthday I went skiing again...there was a notam for KPCO poconos mountain airport for ice on the runway....I figured it couldn’t be too bad...I was wrong....while I made a near perfect touchdown, the cross wind put me skidding on at lease a cantored 20 degree angle going straight down the runway until I could get it under control.  If I knew the runway would be that covered with so much clear ice, I never would have made the trip.   I was even difficult to taxi the plane with a 17 knot breeze.  This was an experience that I will never forget.

on the bright side the skiing was great as was the flight back to KESN Easton md

[Yetti]

don't try one wheel landings for crosswinds on ice.  There is friction needed on the first wheel to hold the plane on the runway.

[GeeBee]

I am not seeing KPCO. I see KMPO? If so there are actually 6 notams for ice. Glad you are ok. As they say, "Once burned is twice learned"

 

 

 

[carusoam]

http://www.airnav.com/airport/MPO
 

Seems to be closest to Mt. Pocono...

Typical MSer Pirep.... never loses focus on the other important parts... the ski conditions!  

Great Job Larry!
 

Best regards,

-a-

[larrynimmo]

8 minutes ago, carusoam said:

http://www.airnav.com/airport/MPO
 

Seems to be closest to Mt. Pocono...

Typical MSer Pirep.... never loses focus on the other important parts... the ski conditions!  

Great Job Larry!
 

Best regards,

-a-

you really hit the nail on the head...I was more concerned about the ski conditions...which were great....once I landed I wasn't too pleased with my decision to ski today...but at the same time,  I wasn't planning on taking off again til the end of the day...so I did make the most of it.

[larrynimmo]

20 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

I am not seeing KPCO. I see KMPO? If so there are actually 6 notams for ice. Glad you are ok. As they say, "Once burned is twice learned"

 

 

 

glad I didn't make Katherines list...for what its worth, I did call the fbo while 10 miles out, and they told me that the runway was being actively used...while still alerting me to the fact that the runway was 70% covered with ice...in fact a met a cute female student pilot who had aced the landing there after me...(with a CFI)...please understand I will not make this mistake again...."had I only known"...and yes it it KMPO.

[aviatoreb]

I made a landing last year this time at KHFD -Hartford Brainard, on 100% ice - breaking action is nil it said- but zero wind and 4000ft.  So fly it til it stops and don't touch the breaks.  Slow motion taxi to the fbo.  And the walk to the fbo from the plane was a slow motion and treacherous.  Ever watch a hockey coach walk on the ice - slide your feet - don't pickem up and very short strides.

[MooneyMitch]

Such an exciting day !!!! ...... and I’m not talking about the young lady or the skiing!!  LOL!  

Glad all turned out well. 

[Marauder]

I flew for years in Buffalo and icy runways were pretty common. As was mentioned, the key is not to use the brakes. Instead using aerodynamic braking and anticipate that you may need considerably more runway to get to a full stop.

The other nicety that comes with icy runways is the possibility that any wet portions can get sprayed up into the wheel wells and freeze.

And let’s not forget about the plowed snow. Between mounds that are high enough to clip your wings to buried runway lights, it leads to a wonderful experience.

I don’t miss it but will still contend with it when I fly north to see the family.


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[LANCECASPER]

I’ll take the warm summers and mild “winters” in TX. I learned how to fly in North Dakota and don’t miss the cold winters. After I moved to TX I learned that yes it is warm in the summer, but you don’t have to shovel heat.

[GeeBee]

One of my big complaints about GA is the lack of runway condition reports as well as consistency in reporting. It tends to drive one towards larger airports in cold weather. As we developed AWOS, I hope the AI industry may be able to make a robot to assess runway conditions at small airports and report automatically runway conditions.

 

[ArtVandelay]

One of my big complaints about GA is the lack of runway condition reports as well as consistency in reporting. It tends to drive one towards larger airports in cold weather. As we developed AWOS, I hope the AI industry may be able to make a robot to assess runway conditions at small airports and report automatically runway conditions.
 

How about just runway surface temperature? That and knowing if the runway is wet which should be obvious when landing could at least be a indicator of potential icing.


Tom

[GeeBee]

It could if no treatment was applied to the runway. Some small governments will send the trucks by the airport after they treat the roads. Especially if they really upon air ambulance. You just don't know when or how much.

 

 

[jaylw314]

19 hours ago, Yetti said:

don't try one wheel landings for crosswinds on ice.  There is friction needed on the first wheel to hold the plane on the runway.

I don't get it?  Why would landing on the upwind main gear first be a problem?  If anything, I'd imagine holding the bank angle as long as possible would keep the plane from sliding downwind...

Of course, if the runway was REALLY icy, I suppose you could just land flat in the crab and be OK...

[Yetti]

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

I don't get it?  Why would landing on the upwind main gear first be a problem?  If anything, I'd imagine holding the bank angle as long as possible would keep the plane from sliding downwind...

Of course, if the runway was REALLY icy, I suppose you could just land flat in the crab and be OK...

The wind is blowing across the runway. With no friction to hold the upwind main, the plane just slides sideways.  My Fight Instructor in Houston went to be a Pilot in Alaska.  He relayed the story to me.   We don't have many icy runways in Houston.

[xcrmckenna]

Sounds like my landing in Sunriver last weekend. There was no NOTAM on the awos and didn’t know about the runway conditions till my buddy that landed about five minutes before me gave me a heads up. The landing was the easy part, taking off on a runway that was the hard part. The runway had thawed in patches making bare pavement in places, water covered ice, and slush. The transition from p factor, ground control, to rudder control was quite the ballet with the rudder peddles. Glad you came out safe. I think I’m ready for the ice runway I believe in New Hampshire.


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[Ibra]

On 12/21/2019 at 2:34 AM, Yetti said:

don't try one wheel landings for crosswinds on ice.  There is friction needed on the first wheel to hold the plane on the runway.

You may get away with that if you know how to cross control column and rudder on touchdown, the big issue is when speed is bellow 30kts on crosswind on ice: one falls into own pilot induced oscillations or when taxying out of runway into wind, touching breaks is a big NO: you have to keep flying it straight or out of wind untill it stops, and keep the tailwheel behind, no idea how it works on tricycle RG tough 

[M016576]

4 hours ago, xcrmckenna said:

Sounds like my landing in Sunriver last weekend. There was no NOTAM on the awos and didn’t know about the runway conditions till my buddy that landed about five minutes before me gave me a heads up. The landing was the easy part, taking off on a runway that was the hard part. The runway had thawed in patches making bare pavement in places, water covered ice, and slush. The transition from p factor, ground control, to rudder control was quite the ballet with the rudder peddles. Glad you came out safe. I think I’m ready for the ice runway I believe in New Hampshire.


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Sun river is no joke.  I’ve landed there a few times and been surprised... and not in a good way.

although in the summer time, it’s absolutely amazing... I love the fleet of bikes they keep at the airport, so you can ride to wherever you may need to get to... better than any crew car around those parts!!!!

[GeeBee]

The argument of how to land on an icy runway(and I am talking ice, not snow or water), is one of  degrees of absurdity. You are putting yourself in a position where control is impossible to know. One wheel may get traction the other may not. With ice, there is no traction. When there is ice on the runway, I cancel the mission. Call me once learned, twice burned. I've taken off in 4 inches of dry snow, I've rolled out on dry snow, wet snow and 1 inch of water but ice is where I draw the line. So does Aeroflot.If the Russians won't do it, that should tell you something.

 

[aviatoreb]

On 12/20/2019 at 9:47 PM, Marauder said:

I flew for years in Buffalo and icy runways were pretty common. As was mentioned, the key is not to use the brakes. Instead using aerodynamic braking and anticipate that you may need considerably more runway to get to a full stop.

Actually I think when rolling to a stop on a long runway, on ice, the rolling resistance in the tires also has a role in slowing the airplane down when not using the brakes at all.  Esp when much slower - like below 20kts.  If the runway is long enough - you will roll to a stop.  But definitely also touch down at slow as practical speed.  DEFINITELY no cross winds allowed if the runway is polished ice braking action is nil.  As for my personal operations - If  there is a cross wind and significant ice go find another airport.  

BTW when it is arctic cold, I am not sure if some of you are familiar with the different natures of ice and snow, but snow can be sharp crystals and not so much slippery when it is arctic cold - like 0F, and then landing on a white runway with snow on it has quite a bit more friction a bit like landing on sand.

Its the pure ice that you get at close to freezing point that is the worst, or maybe melted ice that refreezes and its polished, is the absolute worst.  And you can barely even walk on that stuff.

Edited December 23, 2019 by aviatoreb

[carusoam]

Bikes on ice... very similar... 

Landing on ice does take additional care and knowledge...

Really important to this discussion is the effect of crosswinds...

That is where things get really challenging...

Crabbing while on contact with the ground, to avoid running off the marked runway surface... is very dynamic... with little control...

Sliding off the marked guidelines are going to be unappreciated by pilots and by-standers alike... bumping into snow banks would be bad...

then...

Throw on variable friction depending on the ice or lack of ice on the surface... 

That would make little control with bouts of randomness.... 

 

Interesting thought regarding Aeroflot as a conservative piloting thought leader... 

I didn’t think they could say no to anything... got any more details on their rejection to landing on ice?

Best regards,

-a-

[takair]

And then there is always this FAA approved ice runway:

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2019/january/23/ice-runway-opens-for-season
 

I’ve done it in the Mooney and as others suggested you have to fly it until stopped, like a tail dragger.  Would not want to do it with much crosswind.  It was pure ice when I went, many years ago.  Plowed snow has more friction.  Depending on the day, they may have unforgiving snow banks.  Very so often someone ends up in the snow bank.  Some folks do the annual fly in, for others it’s a bucket list item, for others it’s just a turn off.  One must accept the fact that the risk is higher and finding a mechanic on an ice runway to change a prop is not quite as easy as your local airport, although I believe their is a float plane operation still nearby.

[GeeBee]

Who says it will "roll" to a stop? If the coefficient of friction between the tire and the ice at that point is 0, the bearing friction will prevent the tires from rolling (frictional force is the coefficient of friction times force applied). Unless the wind is zero or you plan on parking straight ahead on the runway, you will encounter wind pushing on the airplane's vertical stab. I've had a parked and chocked 727 slide 10 feet across the ramp. I've landed a C-185 on a glacier with skis where the only way to stop was to shut down the engine. On ice, there are no guarantees and past experience is no guarantee of future results. 

Alton Bay is not "FAA approved" any more than landing on a beach is an FAA approved runway. It is use at your own risk operation. I landed my PA-18 in a forest meadow, on a sand bar and all kinds of surfaces. They were landing spots, but no "FAA approved".

 

 

[takair]

25 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

Who says it will "roll" to a stop? If the coefficient of friction between the tire and the ice at that point is 0, the bearing friction will prevent the tires from rolling (frictional force is the coefficient of friction times force applied). Unless the wind is zero or you plan on parking straight ahead on the runway, you will encounter wind pushing on the airplane's vertical stab. I've had a parked and chocked 727 slide 10 feet across the ramp. I've landed a C-185 on a glacier with skis where the only way to stop was to shut down the engine. On ice, there are no guarantees and past experience is no guarantee of future results. 

Alton Bay is not "FAA approved" any more than landing on a beach is an FAA approved runway. It is use at your own risk operation. I landed my PA-18 in a forest meadow, on a sand bar and all kinds of surfaces. They were landing spots, but no "FAA approved".

 

 

It is actually different than what you describe.  Maybe approved is not the right word, but it is sanctioned and recognized by the FAA, which does mean something to insurance companies.  Like many small airports, it may not be for every airplane or every one, but it does have a designator.  Seaplane in summer and ice in winter. Please don’t take my mention of this as a suggestion that it is as safe as a dry, wide, paved runway.  Use at your own risk.  Google for more info.  
 

https://nfdc.faa.gov/nfdcApps/services/ajv5/airportDisplay.jsp?airportId=B18

[N201MKTurbo]

When I first started flying instruments, I was flying into KRAP (Rapid City SD) on a bad winter day. There was a 30 KT cross wind and the airliners were reporting nil braking action along with 1/2 mile vis and 200 ft. ceilings. The 737 ahead of me on approach canceled the approach and diverted. I went ahead and landed. I carried the crab to the runway and taxied with a crab to parking. Downwind turns are the worst.

I had work to do at the Continental airlines ticket counter. When I got to the ticket counter they asked how I got there. They knew I flew my own plane and then asked "Did you fly your plane here?" I said "I just landed" They said "our plane couldn't land because of the weather". I know, I was right behind him.

It is great to be young and stupid!