How to fly in class B airspace after 1/1 with no adsb out

[Bob - S50]

2 hours ago, Danb said:

good point about the effect the income has on future Medicare costs, time for a spreadsheet to determine the best withdrawal method for tax purposes, especially when one spouse works and the other doesn’t. I believe the Medicare premium will be for two years but I’m not sure without looking it up. I believe I messed mine up a few years ago and was stuck with the higher premium for two years. We need to make the system more difficult to comprehend 

I think your premiums only go up for one year.  I'm pretty sure that your premiums are based on your Medicare Adjusted Income from two years ago.  That is, your 2020 premiums will be based on how much income you had in 2018.  They have to do that since they won't know how much income you had in 2019 until you file your tax return in 2020.  Too late at that point.

[Danb]

Bob they for some reason kick dirt into the faces of seniors, we just received out huge storm increase for next year with the Medicare portion on ours higher than out increase just another year going backwards.

[larryb]

So how much are you really going save in taxes if you wait till next year? Or how much investment return do you think you will miss out on? Is this really a significant number?

[Marauder]

It’s about time we got onto a topic I want to read about! Personally I was getting bored reading “I’ve never been in a Mooney before, not sure I can fit” threads. Looking forward to the new “I’ve never retired before, not sure I can afford to” threads.



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[Niko182]

why not just order a tail beacon, set it up, and when the time comes, sell it when you're about to do the panel upgrade. the beacon can realistically be set up by you, and then have an IA sign off on it. they can be bought from 1850 on beechtalk, and when the time comes, sell it for 1600, and take the 250 dollar hit.

[Cruiser]

you probably should start looking at long term engine preservation.

According to the AOPA article in the latest issue, FAA will only issue exceptions to aircraft equipped and approved. 

In other words they will accommodate flights for maintenance, repair or other issues if the aircraft is equipped i.e. temporary emergencies etc. 

There is an online form to fill out, the article says don't call the local office they will say NO, and don't call the ATC in the air and ask, they will say NO. 

You may want to test this information with your local tower. 

[Jerry 5TJ]

To wit: after 1/1/2020 it wii be “remain clear” if we’re not equipped.   

[nels]

6 hours ago, Niko182 said:

why not just order a tail beacon, set it up, and when the time comes, sell it when you're about to do the panel upgrade. the beacon can realistically be set up by you, and then have an IA sign off on it. they can be bought from 1850 on beechtalk, and when the time comes, sell it for 1600, and take the 250 dollar hit.

It could come to that but knowing me, if I get the tail beacon I’ll put off the 375 indefinitely. The adsb is a pretty good reason to get an upgrade done.

[nels]

6 hours ago, Cruiser said:

you probably should start looking at long term engine preservation.

According to the AOPA article in the latest issue, FAA will only issue exceptions to aircraft equipped and approved. 

In other words they will accommodate flights for maintenance, repair or other issues if the aircraft is equipped i.e. temporary emergencies etc. 

There is an online form to fill out, the article says don't call the local office they will say NO, and don't call the ATC in the air and ask, they will say NO. 

You may want to test this information with your local tower. 

I just read through some of the FAA’s stuff again and I think the problem will arise with what they call “constrained airports”. That is an airport running at 85%percent capacity. They also mention scheduled flights for pay getting advanced permission for flights in adsb required airspace. It doesn’t sound like they will be taking the typical private pilot, operating without adsb out, to task.

Here’s some of what I’ve been reading: https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2019/04/01/2019-06184/statement-of-policy-for-authorizations-to-operators-of-aircraft-that-are-not-equipped-with-automatic

[Andy95W]

13 hours ago, nels said:

It could come to that but knowing me, if I get the tail beacon I’ll put off the 375 indefinitely. The adsb is a pretty good reason to get an upgrade done.

So then install the tail beacon now and install the Garmin GPS 175 when you hit 70.5.  You'll probably come out about the same on price.

---I'll apologize in advance for being the buzz-kill with my following statement.---

It strikes me that you can probably afford the upgrade, you're just trying to find a way to get around the system so that everything lines up according to your plan to have certain money pay for certain things.  I get it, it sucks, but it's not like the FAA sprung this on us 6 months ago.  You were probably still working when the ADS-B mandate came out.

[gsxrpilot]

20 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

It strikes me that you can probably afford the upgrade, you're just trying to find a way to get around the system so that everything lines up according to your plan to have certain money pay for certain things.  I get it, it sucks, but it's not like the FAA sprung this on us 6 months ago.  You were probably still working when the ADS-B mandate came out.

Yep, first world problems 

[chriscalandro]

23 hours ago, MooneyMitch said:

We’ll all know very soon !! 

We already know.  They have been VERY clear on this subject.  Unless it's for maintenance it's not going to happen.  It's literally been a decade.  Nobody should feel bad about anyone that waited until now to get complaint.

Edited December 11, 2019 by chriscalandro

[ArtVandelay]

We already know.  They have been VERY clear on this subject.  Unless it's for maintenance it's not going to happen.  It's literally been a decade.  Nobody should feel bad about anyone that waited until now to get complaint.

I’m with you, as long as the airlines play by the same rules. But I read articles like this one https://www.mro-network.com/maintenance-repair-overhaul/airlines-faa-discussing-grace-period-ads-b-out-rule

 

Makes me wonder if they’re going to be compliant, especially non US carriers.

 

Tom

[kortopates]

I agree without the caveat only because the airlines had some real hurdles with lack of approved Ads-b hardware for some airframes and avionics - a situation that doesn’t apply to any of us - thankfully.


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[nels]

1 hour ago, Andy95W said:

So then install the tail beacon now and install the Garmin GPS 175 when you hit 70.5.  You'll probably come out about the same on price.

---I'll apologize in advance for being the buzz-kill with my following statement.---

It strikes me that you can probably afford the upgrade, you're just trying to find a way to get around the system so that everything lines up according to your plan to have certain money pay for certain things.  I get it, it sucks, but it's not like the FAA sprung this on us 6 months ago.  You were probably still working when the ADS-B mandate came out.

Yes, I’ve been retired for about thirteen years now. I’ve been back into flying for about five years or so. Yes, the mandate is no surprise and I actually strongly considered fulfilling the mandate three or four years ago. However, wisdom prevailed as I assumed the choices would be better and with competition, pricing would be much better.....I was right. Now I can justify way more than a tail beacon going from what I would have spent three years ago. Unfortunately I turn 70 1/2 early in the 2020 tax year. At this time I think it is a no brained to wait until 2020 to purchase equipment from a pretax IRA rather than buy in 2019 out my savings. I sorta look at it as a 30% discount on the radios.

Thinking like this allowed me to retire early, buy a plane that I really can’t justify and I keep peace in the household. 

[amillet]

 wait until 2020 to purchase equipment from a pretax IRA rather than buy in 2019 out my savings. I sorta look at it as a 30% discount on the radios.

Will not the IRA money be post tax after you take the RMD?

[Andy95W]

59 minutes ago, nels said:

At this time I think it is a no brained to wait until 2020 to purchase equipment from a pretax IRA rather than buy in 2019 out my savings. I sorta look at it as a 30% discount on the radios.

 

I get that, really.  And I really understand keeping peace in the household.  If it looks like it didn’t cost anything- then it didn’t!

If it’s just waiting until 2020, then a 1-time exemption to fly your airplane to an avionics shop for ADS-B installation won’t be a problem. As others have said, repeated requests “for maintenance” will probably raise some difficulties. 

[gsxrpilot]

I'm only in my early 50's but I know the days until I lose my medical are numbered. I don't know the number, but I know it gets smaller every day. Therefore there is an urgency for everything aviation related. I wouldn't wait a day, if it meant not being able to fly.

Just my $0.02

[Bob - S50]

1 hour ago, nels said:

Yes, I’ve been retired for about thirteen years now. I’ve been back into flying for about five years or so. Yes, the mandate is no surprise and I actually strongly considered fulfilling the mandate three or four years ago. However, wisdom prevailed as I assumed the choices would be better and with competition, pricing would be much better.....I was right. Now I can justify way more than a tail beacon going from what I would have spent three years ago. Unfortunately I turn 70 1/2 early in the 2020 tax year. At this time I think it is a no brained to wait until 2020 to purchase equipment from a pretax IRA rather than buy in 2019 out my savings. I sorta look at it as a 30% discount on the radios.

Thinking like this allowed me to retire early, buy a plane that I really can’t justify and I keep peace in the household. 

That money next year is NOT tax free.  If it comes from a traditional IRA or 401(k) it will be 100% taxable.  The only difference is that next year you'll HAVE to take it whether you need it or not.  However, you might consider your tax bracket.  Will a withdrawal this year be taxed at a lower rate than next year?  I'm thinking probably yes.  Taking the money out this year will reduce the amount that will be the basis for a RMD next year.  That will only be about a 4% reduction though so it really won't make much savings next year.

You could also start a Roth IRA if you don't already have one, then transfer as much as income tax/medicare premiums considerations dictate.  You'll have to pay tax on the money that is transferred, but the money in the Roth IRA will NEVER be taxed and you'll NEVER be required to take an RMD.  Now that could save you some money.  At the same time you do the transfer, take out enough to pay for the transponder.

You could get a short term HELOC and use it to pay for the transponder.  Then next January when you take out the RMD, or at least enough to pay for the transponder, pay off the HELOC.  You'll only pay interest for one month.  If you took out a loan for $6000 at say 5%, and paid it off in a month, your total interest would only be about $25.

There are always options.  You just have to be creative.

[ArtVandelay]

 wait until 2020 to purchase equipment from a pretax IRA rather than buy in 2019 out my savings. I sorta look at it as a 30% discount on the radios.
Will not the IRA money be post tax after you take the RMD?

He will be paying tax on the IRA withdrawals, no matter if RMDs or not, will be taxed as normal income. So he could take money out of taxable savings and replenish it from the IRA. He’s not saving 30% (there is no exception for aviation purchases, bummer), so he will pay, one way or another. Death and taxes....


Tom

[nels]

2 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

That money next year is NOT tax free.  If it comes from a traditional IRA or 401(k) it will be 100% taxable.  The only difference is that next year you'll HAVE to take it whether you need it or not.  However, you might consider your tax bracket.  Will a withdrawal this year be taxed at a lower rate than next year?  I'm thinking probably yes.  Taking the money out this year will reduce the amount that will be the basis for a RMD next year.  That will only be about a 4% reduction though so it really won't make much savings next year.

You could also start a Roth IRA if you don't already have one, then transfer as much as income tax/medicare premiums considerations dictate.  You'll have to pay tax on the money that is transferred, but the money in the Roth IRA will NEVER be taxed and you'll NEVER be required to take an RMD.  Now that could save you some money.  At the same time you do the transfer, take out enough to pay for the transponder.

You could get a short term HELOC and use it to pay for the transponder.  Then next January when you take out the RMD, or at least enough to pay for the transponder, pay off the HELOC.  You'll only pay interest for one month.  If you took out a loan for $6000 at say 5%, and paid it off in a month, your total interest would only be about $25.

There are always options.  You just have to be creative.

Bob. I realize the 2020 money isn’t tax free. It will be taxed as regular income. Using this years $ means I sell stock to acquire the funds. That sold stock will be taxed at a lower rate but I don’t believe this is a good time to sell the stock I own. 

As for the Roth IRA, I recently talked to my accountant about changing over. He was not real fond of the idea. I didn’t get all he was saying but it sounded as if my wife and I would need an earned income of X amount in order to buy into a Roth. My wife has her own business but it doesn’t make much money..haha. I’ll read your comment a few more times and then mention it to him again. A Roth sure would be simple...no tax no deadlines and probably some benefits in estate after death.

Another thing,....everyone seems to think I’ll be grounded after 1/1/2020. I’m not so sure of that. I do know that if I would simply move my plane out of the 30 mile vail I could fly anytime I wanted to. I just would need to stay out of controlled airspace and under 10k feet. I was hoping someone here might have definite information but as was mentioned earlier,  we will probably figure it all out soon after the 1/1 deadline.

[McMooney]

heck, you could put in on a credit card today and pay it off next year interest free

[nels]

2 hours ago, McMooney said:

heck, you could put in on a credit card today and pay it off next year interest free

I know but I’m not in any hurry. The shop can’t get to it for a month or more. My original question was can I fly without an adsb out unit as I’m based within the 30 mile vail of cvg. I think it has gotten a little side tracked although it’s been kinda fun and interesting reading.

[skydvrboy]

18 hours ago, nels said:

I don’t believe this is a good time to sell the stock I own. 

I don't understand this statement.  The market is at an all time high and has been on a bull run for the last 4 years.  To me, that's a great time to sell (buy low, sell high).  I know a lot of people worry about losing out on future earnings when the market is on a roll.  They wait until the market drops, then get mad and sell everything cursing the market and swearing to never invest again.

Obviously, I don't know your tax situation and that can play into the timing on when to sell.  However, whenever I ask my dad (economics professor) about this he reminds me that you only pay taxes when you make money and it's hard to go wrong with making money.

[Hank]

Move south and don't worry about it. Since moving back here in early 2014, ATL has allowed me into their Bravo exactly zero times (IFR and VFR combined). Then again, I'm usually passing by (often a direct line goes over their runway 9-27 on course ~046) or going somewhere inside the ring but underneath the Bravo (Aircraft Spruce at KFFC). 

Depending on how I feel, I'll either adjust my heading early to the corner of the B, or wait until they tellme to "stay out of the Bravo", zoom the G430W in to 10nm range and drag a wingtip along the edge of the space.

Either way, I go around and add 30 minutes to a 90-minute flight.