G3X Touch Certified

[Yetti]

It's like going to the eye glasses store.   Does not matter how many 2 for one offers they offer.   It always costs $300.00 to get out of there.   In this case it always cost $40,000.00 to get out of the avionics shop

[toto]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

I am talking with 310 Pilot on YouTube about his 3100 installation. He is due to get it back next week and promised a full PIREP on it. 

Interesting that Kevin decided to go with two G5's and then the STEC.

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

When you get to the basics, how much is enough in these planes? I was perfectly happy flying steam for years because I didn't know any better. When the first portable GPS came out in 1991, I was in Shangri La. If none of this glass stuff was available today for our class airplane and only iPad apps were, I would still be in Nirvana. 

I agree. When I took my dad flying he was amazed at everything that was available on the tablet. Compared what is in my little plane to what was in the HC-130's he flew all over Alaska in the 80's, night and day difference.

The part of this announcement that is exciting to me and has me thinking is the GPS 175. I don't have GPS in the panel. That would give me what I am looking for, and it wouldn't be buying a used GPS/NAV/COM that is 10+ years old. I still like the look (and potential price point) of the AV30's to replace my AI and DG. For some reason I just don't get all excited about a big glass panel in a vintage plane.

[Marauder]

28 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Well the big question in advance of this announcement was why would Garmin release the G3X and step all over their TXi business. And now we know... the G3X, while a nice unit, is certainly the base model without all the niceties of the TXi.

I believe this is an attempt to eliminate Aspen & potential future Dynon competition. I have been to avionics shops lately (I know, I am a junkie) and every TXi I saw being installed was going into high end planes (Bonanzas, Aerostars, Lances) and for owners with deep pockets (all of the Bos were getting G600s installed as well). I didn't see one Piper or Cessna getting a TXi, instead, I saw G5s and the occasional Aspen. 

The G3X is clearly aimed at Aspen. And I think the G5 is an expendable or niche product (backups or for the really cheap owners). Where I think Garmin's Achilles Heel in their approach is limiting the G3X to digital products. Maybe that is the bone they are throwing Aspen or something they don't think there is enough business to get the certification for. When you throw in an autopilot, things change. Without the GAD 43e being an option, is their intent for owners to rip out their working BK, Century and STEC autopilots to toss in a G500? Also without the GAD 43e, there isn't any legacy support for the other analog Nav/Coms. The Aspens will display a King 155's output. but from what I read the G3X won't. So what are your options? Go with the TXi (maybe that is their carrot) or upgrade your analog stuff to their new offerings (GTN 375) and other digital products (GNC 255). I am betting on the latter.

[gsxrpilot]

They've probably done enough to put a serious dent in new Aspen purchases. But for those of us running Aspens, it's not enough to get us to switch.  If you've never flown behind an Aspen, you kinda don't know the questions to ask, and that 10" screen is hard to see past. But none of the questions I asked about the G3X, had good answers. So for me, I'm still happy with my Aspen, (soon to be Aspens).

[toto]

16 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I believe this is an attempt to eliminate Aspen & potential future Dynon competition. I have been to avionics shops lately (I know, I am a junkie) and every TXi I saw being installed was going into high end planes (Bonanzas, Aerostars, Lances) and for owners with deep pockets (all of the Bos were getting G600s installed as well). I didn't see one Piper or Cessna getting a TXi, instead, I saw G5s and the occasional Aspen. 

The G3X is clearly aimed at Aspen. And I think the G5 is an expendable or niche product (backups or for the really cheap owners). Where I think Garmin's Achilles Heel in their approach is limiting the G3X to digital products. Maybe that is the bone they are throwing Aspen or something they don't think there is enough business to get the certification for. When you throw in an autopilot, things change. Without the GAD 43e being an option, is their intent for owners to rip out their working BK, Century and STEC autopilots to toss in a G500? Also without the GAD 43e, there isn't any legacy support for the other analog Nav/Coms. The Aspens will display a King 155's output. but from what I read the G3X won't. So what are your options? Go with the TXi (maybe that is their carrot) or upgrade your analog stuff to their new offerings (GTN 375) and other digital products (GNC 255). I am betting on the latter.

Yep, based on the feedback here, the G3X offering has pushed many of us who were thinking about a G500TXi with a legacy autopilot into thinking about a G3X with a GFC500 for a little more money. That sounds like a pretty good business plan for big G. 

[Marauder]

8 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

They've probably done enough to put a serious dent in new Aspen purchases. But for those of us running Aspens, it's not enough to get us to switch.  If you've never flown behind an Aspen, you kinda don't know the questions to ask, and that 10" screen is hard to see past. But none of the questions I asked about the G3X, had good answers. So for me, I'm still happy with my Aspen, (soon to be Aspens).

Yeah, as I mentioned earlier, all of this glass stuff is way more than I could ever ask for. And certainly a lot more than the steam gauges I flew with for the majority of the years I have flown. If Aspen does go under, it will be a shame since it just strengthens Garmin's hold on the market. Competition is a good thing. 

Aspen does have other eggs in their basket, so hopefully they remain financially viable. And I do think that if STEC, L-3, Avidyne and Aspen were all owned by the same people, Garmin would have some solid competition. By being separate companies they are all ripe for individual competition losses against the market juggernaut.  

[gsxrpilot]

1 minute ago, toto said:

Yep, based on the feedback here, the G3X offering has pushed many of us who were thinking about a G500TXi with a legacy autopilot into thinking about a G3X with a GFC500 for a little more money. That sounds like a pretty good business plan for big G. 

If $15K on top of the check you write to Garmin is "little more"...

With autopilots, it's the labor/install that gets you. Even @donkaye is having second thoughts about the GFC500 because of the installation cost. And he spoils his panel worse than Lori Loughlin spoils her daughter.

[LANCECASPER]

31 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

If $15K on top of the check you write to Garmin is "little more"...

With autopilots, it's the labor/install that gets you. Even @donkaye is having second thoughts about the GFC500 because of the installation cost. And he spoils his panel worse than Lori Loughlin spoils her daughter.

We just need him to spoil his yokes and cover them with leather.

[johncuyle]

27 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

If $15K on top of the check you write to Garmin is "little more"...

With autopilots, it's the labor/install that gets you. Even @donkaye is having second thoughts about the GFC500 because of the installation cost. And he spoils his panel worse than Lori Loughlin spoils her daughter.

I think a lot of people are in the same boat as I am WRT AP.  I've owned my plane for two and a half years and the KFC 200 has worked reliably for a grand total of about six months of that.  I need to replace it with something and my options are BK vaporware plus one G5, half as much BK vaporware and an Aspen, or GFC 500.  This wasn't a hard decision yesterday and it isn't any harder today (my panel is getting a BK-ectomy), but if I wanted the extra features of the Aspen like synthetic vision and the ability to feed two nav sources into it, I now have the G3X as a reasonable step up option from just the pair of G5 that I'd be getting with the GFC 500.

Other details I got from asking questions at the webinar:

• Apparently there's an external battery backup for the G3X Certified that doesn't seem to be mentioned on the website.  Presumably two 7" plus the battery is sufficient for backup without G5.  It's as redundant as two G5, anyway.
• You cannot configure the G3X Certified as pilot/copilot with a 10" screen on the left configured as PFD/MFD and a 7" screen on the right also configured as PFD/MFD.  You can with G500 TXi.  This is a luxury feature for me, but I note that it is an STC configuration limitation.  The experimental system supports up to four screens in any combination with any configuration.

[MIm20c]

3 minutes ago, johncuyle said:

 

• Apparently there's an external battery backup for the G3X Certified that doesn't seem to be mentioned on the website.  Presumably two 7" plus the battery is sufficient for backup without G5.  It's as redundant as two G5, anyway.
• You cannot configure the G3X Certified as pilot/copilot with a 10" screen on the left configured as PFD/MFD and a 7" screen on the right also configured as PFD/MFD.  You can with G500 TXi.  This is a luxury feature for me, but I note that it is an STC configuration limitation.  The experimental system supports up to four screens in any combination with any configuration.

Looks like the only option is for the second screen to be a mfd/eis screen. This is why the g5 is required for backup. 

[toto]

42 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

If $15K on top of the check you write to Garmin is "little more"...

With autopilots, it's the labor/install that gets you. Even @donkaye is having second thoughts about the GFC500 because of the installation cost. And he spoils his panel worse than Lori Loughlin spoils her daughter.

I was using "a little more" tongue-in-cheek, but my point is that this may result in more people going with an all-Garmin solution rather than a TXi hybrid with a legacy AP. 

I've just been through a GFC500+2xG5 install, and I'm very reluctant to go down the GFC500 road in the Mooney, largely due to the crazy install time. It's making my Century 2000 look nicer every day

 

[johncuyle]

8 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

Looks like the only option is for the second screen to be a mfd/eis screen. This is why the g5 is required for backup. 

A second screen provides full reversion capability in the event the PFD fails, according to the webinar.  As does a G5.  They had slides for both 10+7 reversion and single screen + G5 reversion.  I kind of like the screen real estate, so 10+7 on the left and a pair of G5 on the right might not be a bad setup.  For dual instruction or if the right seater is a pilot in IMC, etc.

[Niko182]

56 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

If $15K on top of the check you write to Garmin is "little more"...

With autopilots, it's the labor/install that gets you. Even @donkaye is having second thoughts about the GFC500 because of the installation cost. And he spoils his panel worse than Lori Loughlin spoils her daughter.

I found considerably lower quotes than 15K for installation alone for the GFC500.

[Yetti]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

If $15K on top of the check you write to Garmin is "little more"...

With autopilots, it's the labor/install that gets you. Even @donkaye is having second thoughts about the GFC500 because of the installation cost. And he spoils his panel worse than Lori Loughlin spoils her daughter.

Then I retract my  generalization of being competitive with Dynon.   It's only $2250 + install to add AP to the Dynon.   And could probably make the $2250 back selling the Brittian stuff.

[MIm20c]

My guess is a shop that charges $30k for a gfc500 install would charge the same amount for a gtn750 install. They are set up for 100k panel overhauls and don’t deal with people worried about billable hrs. I would not be using a shop like that, but I’m not in the same income bracket as Don. 

[Cruiser]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

If $15K on top of the check you write to Garmin is "little more"...

With autopilots, it's the labor/install that gets you. Even @donkaye is having second thoughts about the GFC500 because of the installation cost. And he spoils his panel worse than Lori Loughlin spoils her daughter.

A local Cessna just had a GFC500 installed and you are absolutely right. The A&P is good but it takes lots of work to install the mounting brackets and hardware just for the servos. Several days on those alone.

[ArtVandelay]

A local Cessna just had a GFC500 installed and you are absolutely right. The A&P is good but it takes lots of work to install the mounting brackets and hardware just for the servos. Several days on those alone.

If you already have an AP installed, I wonder if reusing the mounting brackets is a possibility?


Tom

[bradp]

You won’t be able to reuse brackets 

[johncuyle]

27 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

Which is why i keep saying i dont like Garmin. 

I don't think this is a Garmin thing so much as it is a consequence of the certification path for this system.  Dynon's Skyview Certified also has pretty (very) limited interoperability.  It won't drive a King AP either.  You can pay more for the TSO'd certified panels like the Aspen or the G500 and get interoperability or accept more limited interoperability as one of the limitations of the lower cost STC'd experimental panels.  I liked the sound of the GFC 500 but the Dynon can't drive that either, or an STEC from what I understand, and being locked in to whatever AP Dynon use was a major deterrent to buying it (since my main problem is I want to get rid of my BK AP in favor of something less murderous.)

 

Addition:  According to the BT thread, the experimental G3X works with the TruTrak.  It also works with a ton of other Garmin stuff that the certified model won't, and is available in a bunch more screen configurations, including allowing up to four screens.  I doubt Garmin decided to limit the certified version to two screens because they feel bad about taking your money for four.

[alextstone]

4 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

They've probably done enough to put a serious dent in new Aspen purchases. But for those of us running Aspens, it's not enough to get us to switch.  If you've never flown behind an Aspen, you kinda don't know the questions to ask, and that 10" screen is hard to see past. But none of the questions I asked about the G3X, had good answers. So for me, I'm still happy with my Aspen, (soon to be Aspens).

I’m curios, what questions were relevant to you?   I’ve got one Aspen too and I’m considering upgrading to Max and the second Aspen MFD / backup...

[Cruiser]

Everyone raves about the "big screens" but when I look at the Garmin, there is lots of wasted space. It might be big but it is useless.

Does anyone know what the actual size of the AI and HSI display actually is?

I suspect they are about the same size as on the Aspen. Just sayin'.............

[gsxrpilot]

4 hours ago, johncuyle said:

Presumably two 7" plus the battery is sufficient for backup without G5.  

I asked this question specifically and was told "No" for IFR flight the G5 or some other backup other than the 2nd 7" G3X is required.

[gsxrpilot]

39 minutes ago, alextstone said:

I’m curios, what questions were relevant to you?   I’ve got one Aspen too and I’m considering upgrading to Max and the second Aspen MFD / backup...

• Backup instruments are required regardless of one or two screens installed. This backup can be the G5, but regardless, a backup is required.
• No legacy autopilot support for anything other than heading bug. Fully coupled approaches will require the GFC500.
• No Navigator support other than Garmin.
• No Audio panel support other than Garmin.
• No Transponder support other than Garmin.
• Certain nice Garmin features like Database Concierge, and a few other features, not supported on the G3X.
• The hardware/video is legacy quality. "If you want the new modern video resolution, buy the TXi"

Just like the GFC500 is a great new autopilot, but it's not quite the GFC600 level. The G3X is nice, but it's not TXi level and not meant to compete.

I believe the Aspen competes very well with the top of the line TXi in everything except the large screen. And as @Cruiser said, to my eye, a lot of that screen is wasted real estate. If I was going G3X, I'd prefer two 7" screens anyway. To my eye, they're a better use of space. With two Aspen screens I have full revision and redundancy. With two G3X screens you have two screens. But you still require a third screen that is only used if something fails. With the Aspen, the MFD is my backup. If the PFD fails, the MFD becomes the PFD. And in an emergency situation, I don't need an MFD, I can certainly use an iPad for that, or my panel mounted GPS is also effectively an MFD. 

I've never like the idea of instruments in my panel that are ONLY there incase of a failure. I'd like them all do have a useful function.

Anyway, just my $0.02. I've had a full helping of crow as well, and was about to call the avionics shop and cancel my Aspen MFD order. But after sitting through the webinar, and reading everything Trek posted on BeechTalk, I'm very comfortable with my decision to move forward with the Aspens. 

[smccray]

2 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

• Backup instruments are required regardless of one or two screens installed. This backup can be the G5, but regardless, a backup is required.
•  No legacy autopilot support for anything other than heading bug. Fully coupled approaches will require the GFC500.
•  No Navigator support other than Garmin.
• No Audio panel support other than Garmin.
•  No Transponder support other than Garmin.
•  Certain nice Garmin features like Database Concierge, and a few other features, not supported on the G3X.
•  The hardware/video is legacy quality. "If you want the new modern video resolution, buy the TXi"

 Just like the GFC500 is a great new autopilot, but it's not quite the GFC600 level. The G3X is nice, but it's not TXi level and not meant to compete.

I believe the Aspen competes very well with the top of the line TXi in everything except the large screen. And as @Cruiser said, to my eye, a lot of that screen is wasted real estate. If I was going G3X, I'd prefer two 7" screens anyway. To my eye, they're a better use of space. With two Aspen screens I have full revision and redundancy. With two G3X screens you have two screens. But you still require a third screen that is only used if something fails. With the Aspen, the MFD is my backup. If the PFD fails, the MFD becomes the PFD. And in an emergency situation, I don't need an MFD, I can certainly use an iPad for that, or my panel mounted GPS is also effectively an MFD. 

 I've never like the idea of instruments in my panel that are ONLY there incase of a failure. I'd like them all do have a useful function.

 Anyway, just my $0.02. I've had a full helping of crow as well, and was about to call the avionics shop and cancel my Aspen MFD order. But after sitting through the webinar, and reading everything Trek posted on BeechTalk, I'm very comfortable with my decision to move forward with the Aspens. 

Great list of down sides to the Garmin.  It's cheaper than the TXI system, but you give up a few things to get the cheaper option.  I have a 10" TXI display (with the EIS) and I wouldn't not say that the screen is anywhere near too large.  There's a lot of info on that screen.

I'm not surprised by the limitations of the G3X system.  Wide compatibility is desirable, but it's not free.  The closes system certainly does give Garmin the ability to capture more dollars from the aircraft owner, but it also gives Garmin the ability to more quickly test the systems and reduces the cost to bring them to market.  TXI or G3X- pick your poison- or go elsewhere and take your chances.

I'm on the record of what I think is going to happen to Aspen.  Great product 10 years ago when it came out- revolutionary.  Today- it's not competitive.  12 months ago when I looked at new planes I considered an Aspen the same as King AI/HSI.  In the future- my money is that most buyers think about Aspen equipped airplanes exactly the same.  Doesn't change the capability of an aspen equipped airplane, but I do expect it to change the desirability.