which model is the best F,J,K or M

[FloridaMan]

3 minutes ago, M20F said:

Till you actually need to fix something that breaks and then there is a very big difference between a carborated 4 and a high performance turbo’ed 6 cylinder.  Somewhat disingenuous to imply cost of ownership will be the same between the 2 models.

 

[bradp]

I’m over on the NC coast in Wilmington. Welcome to ride in a J if you want to see what it’s like.  TTA flying club has a J and a MSE  and an S or something like that.  

Sit in it and make sure it’s comfy for you before you commit.  

None of these planes are I’m gonna go moosing with my 4 buddies in the back country types of planes.  

Take care 

B

[G Miller]

For 50% of the price of a J, you can have a C. The C will be 10% slower and burn 10% less fuel. The O-360 in the C is bullet-proof. If your mission is for a pilot and a passenger the C offers some significant advantages.

[Andy95W]

3 hours ago, G Miller said:

For 50% of the price of a J, you can have a C. The C will be 10% slower and burn 10% less fuel. The O-360 in the C is bullet-proof. If your mission is for a pilot and a passenger the C offers some significant advantages.

Excellent point, though the J is 10% faster on about the same fuel.

I don't think you and I will change any minds about the C vs. J, no matter how rational.  There's another thread around here where people are talking about "upgrading" to a PlanePower alternator that is 10% better than the OEM at 50% more money than overhauling the existing one.

[Steve_B]

Great info in this thread.  I had my sights set on a J but after reading this thread, I"m now adding an F to my list.  I want a mid body so the C is out but I like the higher UL of the F and the speed tradeoff is not that much and I see a lot of F's with speed mods that really narrow/remove that gap.  

I realize that the speed differences are not that great but there is that psychological aspect (especially for my wife) of getting somewhere in 2:50 vs 3:05.  It's the 2 hour vs 3 hour trip when in reality it's a 15 min diff.  Kinda like the $39,999 car that seems to have the same effect in that it's not a $40K car.  I've even hear people say it's a $30K car.  The marketing industry has done a lot of research to most effectively separate us from our money so that effect is real for some.

-Steve

[gsxrpilot]

I would think the E/F/J will do 10% faster on less gas than the C. As they can fly LOP reliably.

[Skates97]

3 hours ago, Steve_B said:

Great info in this thread.  I had my sights set on a J but after reading this thread, I"m now adding an F to my list.  I want a mid body so the C is out but I like the higher UL of the F and the speed tradeoff is not that much and I see a lot of F's with speed mods that really narrow/remove that gap.  

I realize that the speed differences are not that great but there is that psychological aspect (especially for my wife) of getting somewhere in 2:50 vs 3:05.  It's the 2 hour vs 3 hour trip when in reality it's a 15 min diff.  Kinda like the $39,999 car that seems to have the same effect in that it's not a $40K car.  I've even hear people say it's a $30K car.  The marketing industry has done a lot of research to most effectively separate us from our money so that effect is real for some.

-Steve

That's an easy one. Just tell her "Looks like about a 2:50 flight time." If she's like my wife she'll sleep for at least half the trip and won't know the difference in an extra 15 minutes of flight. If she does just say "The winds were a little different than forecast." 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Skates97 said:

That's an easy one. Just tell her "Looks like about a 2:50 flight time." If she's like my wife she'll sleep for at least half the trip and won't know the difference in an extra 15 minutes of flight. If she does just say "The winds were a little different than forecast." 

I just divide the distance by 140 and tell her the time "+/- the wind." After a few flights, she'll understand. Better to let her sleep, though.

[ToddCC22]

I got to attempt my first landing in today's lessons!  I say attempt for good reasons.....I see why everyone says learn to land on a rental plane.  I got a little grass strip experience.....with one wheel before my CFI bailed me out and then got to land twice in one attempt (bounce)!  All at a fairly wide and long runway.  My final into 14A (much narrower and shorter) with a little assist from my CFI was actually respectable.  I could see spending an entire day in pattern touch and goes to get to know where the wheels are and how to fly it to the runway.

Happy New Year All!

[DonMuncy]

We all went through that.

[Bryan]

There appears to be a nice J for sale near me in North Little Rock, AR. It popped up on my FB group: AIRCRAFT FOR SALE or BUY.

basics:

1982 M20J, mid-time engine, new paint, Centruy 21 autopilot, 530 waas, adsb in/out, JPI engine monitor, no damage history... listed for $115,000

I don’t know the seller or the airplane but it is a 7min flight from my field. PM me and I can give you the contact info I saved.

[carusoam]

Todd,

Congrats on proving yourself to be a human being! 

You get to go through the same learning curve with larger and heavier Mooneys... even with a decade of lighter Mooney experience...

Learning the first day takes up so much cognitive energy... you can only learn so much...

Come back the second day, everything clicks into place...

Best regards,

-a-

[aviatoreb]

K

[FloridaMan]

When I've encountered pilots who are learning to land, I teach them to think of the sight picture you have riding down an escalator. You typically focus towards the bottom of the escalator  as you're riding it down, but as you start to round off at the bottom, you change your focus to look ahead of you.

When you're on final, you only care about two things: airspeed and runway. Get your speed correct using pitch (I know; easier said than done when you're learning, but master control of airspeed and landings will be easy). If the runway is moving up in the windscreen, you're sinking. Add power. If the runway is moving down, pull power out. As for rudder work, my solution for the confusion as to which foot to press in a crosswind to straighten the plane out was to imagine the foot that you press pulls the nose towards it; at the same time action/reaction and all of that, the opposite wing will drop on its own and you just need to make sure to track centerline. I had CFIs go into all sorts of "drop a wing" and "opposite rudder" and all of that which overloaded me as back as a primary student. Stay loose on the pedals and remember that rudder work isn't just pressing with one foot, you lift with the other or you'll fighting yourself when stressed. 

[Shadrach]

4 minutes ago, Antares said:

When I've encountered pilots who are learning to land, I teach them to think of the sight picture you have riding down an escalator. You typically focus towards the bottom of the escalator  as you're riding it down, but as you start to round off at the bottom, you change your focus to look ahead of you.

When you're on final, you only care about two things: airspeed and runway. Get your speed correct using pitch (I know; easier said than done when you're learning, but master control of airspeed and landings will be easy). If the runway is moving up in the windscreen, you're sinking. Add power. If the runway is moving down, pull power out. As for rudder work, my solution for the confusion as to which foot to press in a crosswind to straighten the plane out was to imagine the foot that you press pulls the nose towards it; at the same time action/reaction and all of that, the opposite wing will drop on its own and you just need to make sure to track centerline. I had CFIs go into all sorts of "drop a wing" and "opposite rudder" and all of that which overloaded me as back as a primary student. Stay loose on the pedals and remember that rudder work isn't just pressing with one foot, you lift with the other or you'll fighting yourself when stressed. 

I like the escalator analogy a lot. Confused by the statement in bold. The rudder certainly "pulls the nose" toward the peddle being pressed, but it definitely does not cause the opposite wing to drop on its own.

[ToddCC22]

The escalator visualization is a good one.  Hopefully I'll get more time later this week to work on it!

Thanks!

[Bartman]

On 1/2/2019 at 10:02 AM, Shadrach said:

I like the escalator analogy a lot. Confused by the statement in bold. The rudder certainly "pulls the nose" toward the peddle being pressed, but it definitely does not cause the opposite wing to drop on its own.

I kinda took it as referring to instinct. When I step on the rudder I don’t even think about adding opposite aileron, it’s just like a leaned muscle memory kicks in and adjust for wind drift as required.  Crosswinds often die out close to touchdown but when they don’t, then firmly planting that upwind main and being patient on the other main I still have to think about sometimes and saying it in my mind helps. 

I too like the escalator image

[FloridaMan]

That's odd. Perhaps I'm doing something other than just using the rudder and not even realizing it. I know there's some slight tethering effect with mild control input, at least in my F, between the ailerons and rudder. I don't use the PC system, but I assume there are either bungees linking them or it's a side-effect of pressure in the servos that help the plane stay coordinated, but if I'm below Va and doing some sightseeing, I don't feel like I put in any aileron input when I apply full rudder to look out of the opposite window at what's beneath me. Also, when I'm in the flare and am carrying a bit more energy than I should, and I don't know if this is a bad habit, but I "walk" the rudder a bit and alternate between a slight left and right forward slip. There's a good chance that while holding centerline I'm dropping one wing and then the other. 

While discussing landing techniques and rudder, the following is only tangentally related, but I like to explain this to student pilots lest their instructors forget. I made it through my private and instrument ratings before learning some of this stuff: 

A note on cross-coordinating an airplane, such as when in a slip or a skid. Your CFI should cover this with you, but it's best said than assumed as stalling under such conditions while in the pattern is one of the leading causes of fatal accidents. When you're uncoordinated, you're increasing drag and airspeed starts to bleed off more quickly. I came close to a power off stall once as a very low time pilot when flying an old "fastback" style 172. I was landing at a 2000ft runway with a decent crosswind. On final, I apply rudder to straighten the plane up with the centerline and all of a sudden I hear the stall horn. The increased drag of that fat 172 bled off airspeed way faster than I expected. Stalling with your controls crossed can throw you into a spin and at low altitudes it's often fatal. 

Watch out for skidding turns. A lot of 172 instructors teach their students to not bank more than 30 degrees in the pattern, which is generally easier than explaining the increase in stall speed and wing loading that comes with steep turns (your stall speed increases as the square of the Gs you're pulling. A level 60 degree bank is a 2G turn and your stall speed is your 1G stall speed * sqrt(2) or 1.414, or a 40% increase in stall speed at 60 degrees). At 4G, your stall speed doubles, so if you're in a turn and yank hard you can still stall the airplane. The issue that comes with the 30 degree limitation in the pattern that's taught is that sometimes students use the rudder to pull the nose around to make the turn. In that case, you're in a skid and if you manage to stall, you can be in real trouble. Here's what happens. Generally speaking, when you're in a forward or side slip, or a turning slip (turning with your foot pressing on the high side or "top rudder" in the turn), your fuselage is shadowing the top wing a bit and you might have some slight airspeed indication error. If you stall in this configuration with the top wing shadowed, that wing will stall first and drop. You don't want this to happen, but at least it drops through horizontal and you might have a chance of catching it. If you're in a skid, with the rudder pulling the nose around in a turn and you stall, the bottom wing stalls first, the forward CG of the nose pulls down just as in a normal stall, but the top wing hasn't yet stalled and is still flying. The acceleration of the nose downwards accelerates the top wing, increases lift of that wing with the increase in speed and rolls the plane upside down and towards the ground. 

 

[Shadrach]

@Antares The rudder/aileron interconnect would not counteract the tendency for the rearward yawing wing to drop, it would exacerbate it.  A Left rudder input pulls nose left/pushes tail right. This means a decrease in relative airflow over the left wing and an increase over the right wing. Left wing drops, right wing rises.   Some rudimentary RC aircraft only have rudder control and do not have ailerons. They roll in a turn just like any other aircraft except that you can tell that yaw is the initial input.

Incidentally, I agree with your opinion of the F model.  There is almost nothing in the same price point that will carry as much, as far and as fast as an F model. Good dispatch reliability and relatively inexpensive to maintain. It is a huge value.

Edited January 3, 2019 by Shadrach

[MikeOH]

On 1/3/2019 at 11:07 AM, Shadrach said:

snip...

Incidentally, I agree with your opinion of the F model.  There is almost nothing in the same price point that will carry as much, as far and as fast as an F model. Good dispatch reliability and relatively inexpensive to maintain. It is a huge value.

Yuup!

That’s why I bought an F

[Marauder]

Yuup!
That’s why I bought an F

Yep, good payload and the fact most F models are owned by loving and caring individuals.

Which is the J panel and which is the F panel? I keep getting them mixed up.






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[ArtVandelay]

Yep, good payload and the fact most F models are owned by loving and caring individuals.

Which is the J panel and which is the F panel? I keep getting them mixed up.

The quadrant and annunciator are tell tails of F vs J.


Tom

[gsxrpilot]

Pretty happy with my K today. We drew a straight line from Durango to Austin, never mind the mountains. 4 hours flat, 46 gal. We might or might not have been hauling a full "F" load as well 

[Marauder]

The quadrant and annunciator are tell tails of F vs J.


Tom

Nope.

How about this J?




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[EricJ]

24 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

The quadrant and annunciator are tell tails of F vs J.


Tom

Late Fs and early Js share a lot of components, including in the panel.