Landing a Mooney - Safety Culture

[Yetti]

I hate seeing "you got to be on your numbers"  to land a Mooney.   There are several ways to land a Mooney and everyone needs all of them in their bag of tricks to get down when the chips are down.  If you don't know them you need to learn them.   You also need to have plans like you do on take off should things not go the way you wanted.

The whole if you bounce you need to go around is not always the best course of action.   If you bounce you need to set up the plane again for landing and land it sometimes.   Also just because the end of the runway is coming up does not mean you need to fly it.   You may need to just take your licks and stomp on one pedal and put her in the grass.

Start the flaming on me but only having one way to land is what is causing all these stall spins.

Can you do a one wheel landing?

Can you land at 90mph no flaps?

What is going to take you off your game and fluster you till you can't fly the plane?  

We all need to up our skills.

Everyone is going to revert to your training when the heart rate goes through the roof.   So what have you been trained and what is in your pilot bag of tricks that you can pull out when you need it?

Soapbox put away.... for the moment....

 

[gsxrpilot]

Yep, I'm with @Yetti on this one. There is undoubtedly a "best" way to land a Mooney. But if the criteria is be safe and don't hurt the airplane or the passengers, then it's wide open. There are lots of methods and configurations that work just fine. And the more of them you're comfortable with the better.

[Bryan]

I agree, there is more than one way to land a Mooney but I do not agree with this statement:

"...having one way to land is what is causing all these stall spins."  How do you know?  Were you in the cockpit right before these stall/spins?

In fact, you should be able to land in all different configurations.  I can tell you what works "for me" based on my experience but that is my opinion based on my training and experience.  And each landing (for me) is different based on the conditions and safety of the flight. 

Telling someone how to land or how (not) to land should be the job of a model specific CFI during transition training.

[Mooneymite]

Nope.  While I agree that there are different techniques, aerodynamics don't change.  An airplane is designed in a certain way...its "numbers" are determined by its design.

Stray from the numbers and you get what you get.

I live right on a runway and watch planes land (and takeoff) all the time.  My  belief that "numbers rule" is reinforced everyday by those who don't respect the numbers.

[DVA]

All airplanes land exactly the same - they stop flying and eventually roll to a stop. How you accomplish that differs slightly for most GA planes but in the end it’s all about a well timed stall and brakes. Mooney’s land no different - there’s no magic or tricks any more so than any other non trainer complex airplane. I agree with @Yetti that you need to be adaptable, and you need to practice variations from the normal “book” landing regularly. Force yourself to practice variations, you will need to land that way someday - guaranteed. 

[N6018Q]

There's a world of difference between the "numbers" inside the plane (ASI, etc.) and the variable "numbers" outside the plane (wind speed, runway length or condition, etc. etc.). Those are the ones that we have to train for, because as Yetti said, "Everyone is going to revert to your training when the heart rate goes through the roof."

[INA201]

The plane will not quit flying until it is slowed down to the “numbers.”

Do you wanna lower gear early or later, slip it down, put flaps in now or later, fly downwind at x speed this time y speed next time, fly a high glide slope or low, close in or long final, etc? All of these options are up to you every time but ultimately culminate with the numbers to set her down smoothly. 

The more stable and predictable the approach is the safer the outcome IMOP. 

[pdxphil]

I think understanding the 'numbers' and being able to fly them gets you along way toward being able to then handle the plane in all of the variants that derive from that baseline. If you've never attained the skill of managing stable approaches at the 'numbers' or near them all bets are off IMO.

[Mooneymite]

27 minutes ago, DVA said:

... in the end it’s all about a well timed stall and brakes. 

I think my employer's FOQA gate keepers would be a-calling me if I practiced "a well timed stall" on landings.

While I like the stall warning to be chirping as I touch down in my Mooney, the plane is not fully stalled

33 minutes ago, DVA said:

All airplanes land exactly the same - 

.  Now, in my tail dragger, that's a different plane.  A full stall landing is exactly that.

Different planes; they both fly by design numbers, but they definitely don't land the same.

[gsxrpilot]

I can roll my Mooney on gently at anything between 60 knots and 90 knots. I can also land it with full flaps or no flaps and anything in between. And I'm happy to demonstrate it for anyone who wants to ride along. Obviously stopping distance between touchdown and stopped will vary with the speed.

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, Yetti said:

Everyone is going to revert to your training when the heart rate goes through the roof.   So what have you been trained and what is in your pilot bag of tricks that you can pull out when you need it?

Well I agree with that part.  When the heart rate goes through the roof.

I wrote about here my unfun-experience in April when I experienced a complete loss of power and happily made a successful dead stick landing on a runway.  One thing I was doing was a lot of self talk "dont get slow don't get slow" and I also made a decision to just go for the runway (instead of one more turn in front of the runway to loose some more altitude which I had been doing to come down from 12k or so) which I was well aware set me up for a very high steep approach - so I came to that runway very fast maybe 95kts?  Well I had dumped all drag once the runway was made - not before - gear, flaps speed brakes and I decided that if it would be an over run then so be it, so what, insurance company's airplane.  So besides that even with all the speed it didn't bounce...because I didn't touch down until I was about at landing speed which you sort of get by feel and...cheating (AOA indicator).  No bounces and no bent metal.  Phew.

Edited September 6, 2018 by aviatoreb

[Yetti]

The next question of safety culture is:  How do we get everyone on their landing A game.   For me based on my Instructor a bad landing is when the front tire is not on the center line measured in inches missed.   Do we fly with buds and help each other out?  Do we demand more of ourselves?

[Browncbr1]

Going into CGF a couple weeks ago, if I had been flying by the numbers, we would have fallen into a construction site on short final when I encountered tons of sheer (suspected).  IAS was about 100mph, lost 15mph and tons of sink in an instant on short final 100-200AGL. That was with giving nearly full power to arrest the descent.   No ASOS or other advisory from tower or approach.  No flap one wheel landing on 18knot crosswind component.   Not meaning to toot my own horn, just saying they don’t really teach any of that in private or even commercial ratings, but the conditions are pretty common, especially in the Midwest.  

Edited September 6, 2018 by Browncbr1

[steingar]

Personally, I honestly think those saying Mooneys are easy to land are doing toe community a disservice.  Speed control is hugely important, land too fast and you get to float, too slow and the gear will return all that downward energy in a wonderful bounce.  Mooneys are less tolerant to this sort of thing because they sit low to the ground.  I love my Mooney, but I just wouldn't call it easy to land.  Then again, I had an airplane that was easy to land, I transitioned into the Mooney for a reason.

I think what really leads a lot of Mooney pilots in to trouble is bad habits and perhaps poor airmanship.  Many of us are based at long big city airports and fly mostly to long big city airports.  Thus we develop bad habits that manifest themselves in smaller shorter strips.  I do agree with the OP, we really have to be on our A game all the time,  you just never know when you're going to need it.  And yes, sometimes not going around is the smarter alternative.  

Oh heck, I'll even throw in my own prop strike, as painful and embarrassing as it is to me.  Mine came from too little energy in landing and an uneven runway surface that led to the strike, which happened on the first bounce. I had an symmetrically bent prop and a busted crank shaft.  I shut down and rode it out.  Had I done what others here recommend, put in the power after that bounce, I strongly suspect I would have collided with the tall trees at the end of the runway.  Sometimes its better to ride it out and have a pranged airplane, rather than put in the power and have a pranged you.

Last time I landed CGF I mentioned to the controller that most airports face the runway into the prevailing winds.  Hate landing there, though at least the runway is plenty long.

[Yetti]

37 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

Going into CGF a couple weeks ago, if I had been flying by the numbers, we would have fallen into a construction site on short final when I encountered tons of sheer (suspected).  IAS was about 100mph, lost 15mph and tons of sink in an instant on short final 100-200AGL. That was with giving nearly full power to arrest the descent.   No ASOS or other advisory from tower or approach.  No flap one wheel landing on 18knot crosswind component.   Not meaning to toot my own horn, just saying they don’t really teach any of that in private or even commercial ratings, but the conditions are pretty common, especially in the Midwest.  

Lots of tricks in the pilot bag to pull out when needed.

[Marauder]

Personally, I honestly think those saying Mooneys are easy to land are doing toe community a disservice.  Speed control is hugely important, land too fast and you get to float, too slow and the gear will return all that downward energy in a wonderful bounce.  Mooneys are less tolerant to this sort of thing because they sit low to the ground.  I love my Mooney, but I just wouldn't call it easy to land.  Then again, I had an airplane that was easy to land, I transitioned into the Mooney for a reason.
I think what really leads a lot of Mooney pilots in to trouble is bad habits and perhaps poor airmanship.  Many of us are based at long big city airports and fly mostly to long big city airports.  Thus we develop bad habits that manifest themselves in smaller shorter strips.  I do agree with the OP, we really have to be on our A game all the time,  you just never know when you're going to need it.  And yes, sometimes not going around is the smarter alternative.  
Oh heck, I'll even throw in my own prop strike, as painful and embarrassing as it is to me.  Mine came from too little energy in landing and an uneven runway surface that led to the strike, which happened on the first bounce. I had an symmetrically bent prop and a busted crank shaft.  I shut down and rode it out.  Had I done what others here recommend, put in the power after that bounce, I strongly suspect I would have collided with the tall trees at the end of the runway.  Sometimes its better to ride it out and have a ranged airplane, rather than pt in the power and have a pranged you.
Last time I landed CGF I mentioned to the controller that most airports face the runway into the prevailing winds.  Hate landing there, though at least the runway is plenty long.

I have a closet full of landing videos of Mooneys. There are 3 active Mooneys on my field and we are always critiquing each other landings. Here is one.

Personally I can say I have made the best landing I ever made in an airplane in a Mooney. I can also say that I have made the worst landing I ever made in a Mooney.


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[jaylw314]

24 minutes ago, steingar said:

I think what really leads a lot of Mooney pilots in to trouble is bad habits and perhaps poor airmanship.  Many of us are based at long big city airports and fly mostly to long big city airports.  Thus we develop bad habits that manifest themselves in smaller shorter strips.  I do agree with the OP, we really have to be on our A game all the time,  you just never know when you're going to need it.  And yes, sometimes not going around is the smarter alternative.  

I'd sort of disagree, I think the majority of Mooney's (and MS members) are short/mid-bodies that operate out of smaller airports.  We have enough CB's and anti-authority types here, and most of them are going to avoid being based out of or fly into major airports.  As an aside, it seems ironic that on 2500-3000' runways I usually use, I rarely touch the brakes, but when I've flown large controlled airports, I've had to stand on the brakes a number of times.

 

30 minutes ago, steingar said:

Oh heck, I'll even throw in my own prop strike, as painful and embarrassing as it is to me.  Mine came from too little energy in landing and an uneven runway surface that led to the strike, which happened on the first bounce. I had an symmetrically bent prop and a busted crank shaft.  I shut down and rode it out.  Had I done what others here recommend, put in the power after that bounce, I strongly suspect I would have collided with the tall trees at the end of the runway.  Sometimes its better to ride it out and have a ranged airplane, rather than pt in the power and have a pranged you.

My CFI said at the first sign of a suspected prop strike, going around should be eliminated as an option, but we always train to go around.  I recall the video of that Aerostar that belly-landed, then took off.   Unfortunately, when I had one hard landing, my reflex was to immediately go around because of my training.  Luckily, there was no prop strike but the experience did make me rethink my training... 

[Bob_Belville]

3 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

Personally I can say I have made the best landing I ever made in an airplane in a Mooney. I can also say that I have made the worst landing I ever made in a Mooney.


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Yup, me too.

I'd add that usually the bad, bouncy ones are when the external conditions are perfect. 

[Andy95W]

6 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Personally I can say I have made the best landing I ever made in an airplane in a Mooney. I can also say that I have made the worst landing I ever made in a Mooney.

 

I think I'm still waiting for my best landing...

[DVA]

Yep - and my worst too. Lol

[N201MKTurbo]

I land with the airspeed needle pointing to the right. If it is pointing up I add more power, if it is pointing down I take some power away. I pitch and power to stay on the glide path.

[Marauder]

Yep - and my worst too. Lol

 

Don’t worry, give it time...

 

At one time I was convinced I had a tail hook on my Mooney.

 

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[FloridaMan]

If you have an engine failure at altitude, whether you’re landing on a real runway or an imagined one, aim for the center of it and not the numbers. You can always slow down and drop on final, but you can’t get it back. 

[MBDiagMan]

3 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I can roll my Mooney on gently at anything between 60 knots and 90 knots. I can also land it with full flaps or no flaps and anything in between. And I'm happy to demonstrate it for anyone who wants to ride along. Obviously stopping distance between touchdown and stopped will vary with the speed.

A few months ago I could have made a similar, but not as confident statement about my C.  When I moved to the F, modified to a point of essentially being a J, I was overwhelmed for awhile.  It all started coming together yesterday, with some confidence building this morning.  I still have awhile to go before I can be as confident as the above statement.  I think the important thing is to try different things under different conditions.

The one thing that I took out of the bag of tricks for the F is slips.  I slipped the C as if it were my Cessna 140.  I have been told that when slipping an F or J, jamming the rudders too fast can break it into a spin.  I will pass on that until. learn much more.

[Shadrach]

There are many ways to land a Mooney but the list of ways to land a Mooney well is pretty short.  I'll also say that there are a few ways to configure a Mooney for landing depending on conditions. I'll even agree that there are unique missions that require operating outside normal envelope (Say short field landings, no flap landings or formation landings).  However, I won't abide the old adage that any landing you can walk away from is a good one. By and large, an approach should be stable by short final and at a speed no greater than 1.3 X Vso (I prefer less) for configuration and weight.   I have seen all manor of poor techniques used to land these aircraft. I’ve seen the aftermath of a multi 1000hr ATP's 3rd bounce in a Bravo...the runway asphalt suffered only a slight scar but the prop and engine had to come off the plane.  I've seen several Mooneys that were apparently used as DR trimmers as they ended up far off the departure end of the runway after cutting through a swath of vegetation.  As a new mooney pilot, I thought I had my method for greasers nailed. What I was doing was flying the plane on flat at 70-75 mph.  So smooth... After touchdown, my instructor pulled the yoke aft, all 3 wheels left the ground and he still had enough energy to flare. The flaw in my technique was clear, I hadn't really landed.   I'm sure there are ways to land a Mooney that I've never seen nor imagined.

Landing too fast is a problem in our ranks. A search of the NTSB data base bares that out.  Mooney pilots say Mooneys are intolerant of sloppy speed control because they are. Mooney pilots say you should be on your numbers because you should. Doing a task correctly or as close to correctly as possible is what you gives you the ability to easily recognize when you’re about to do it wrong.   The "Anything that works" approach is a good way to 1) develop bad habits and 2) justify those bad habits.

KNOW YOUR NUMBERS

Edited September 7, 2018 by Shadrach