Engine overhaul questions

[Candy man]

Ok, I know there are multiple threads on this subject, but I want to ask the question a different way.

I understand TBO is a recommendation and not a hard stop. I also understand many will keep changing pistons until comprsssions are poor or the engine is making metal. All that being said here are the questions.

to replace the engine there are 3 options; factory new, factory exchange, and Overhaul. Factory new and factory exchange get you a zero time logbook, however ( if I understand it correctly) there may be parts in the factory exchange that are many thousands of hours old. 

Question 1,  Other than the logbook at zero, and a faster turnaround what are the advantages to the factory exchange over a rebuild?

Question 2, If I want to sell my airplane in the future and the Overhaul was done by a reputable bigger name shop does the potential buyer care that the engine logbook wasn’t at zero when overhauled? I see “smoh” in the descriptions of used planes, and often times with the shop name but nobody seems to specify wether it was exchange, Overhaul, or new.

question 3, if my engine is more than 35 years old (and it is) my core isn’t worth as much, how should this fit into the equation?

I may hve more questions based upon the responses. As always I’m grateful for the knowledge and help this site offers. Thanks again in advance to the group.

 

Lawrence

[ArtVandelay]

Be careful with terms, rebuild is what?

1.

Assuming you meant overhaul, factory route will come back with roller tappets. And if new you will get 2 separate magnetos, which will be Slicks.

2.

Don’t know how other people looked at, but a field overhaul by some Joe would have been a red flag. An overhaul by respected engine shop would be looked at similar to factory overhaul IMO.

 

[Bob - S50]

Actually, there are 4 options.  Factory New (0 time).  Factory Rebuilt (0 time).  Factory Overhaul (not 0 time).  Field Overhaul (not 0 time).

Personally, if I was looking for an airplane I'd be looking for one with about 500 hours on the engine.  It wouldn't matter to me where it was done as long as a pre-purchase inspection looked good (compressions, borescope, leak check, oil sample, oil burn rate).  If I see an airplane with 0 time on the engine, I wonder what they did that made them decide to pay for an overhaul and then sell it immediately.  If it only has a few hours on the engine, I'd be concerned that they may not have properly seated the rings.  I'd rather have a run out engine with a discounted price so I could have it overhauled and then break it in myself.

Just me of course.

[Bravoman]

I had to get a factory reman for my Mooney  because due to my particular circumstances as to why I needed a new engine I  really had no other options. It has been a flawless engine after about 300 hours, but given my druthers I would get an overhaul done by a quality shop like Penn Yan or Zephyr. As I understand it, you can sometimes luck out with a factory reman and get a brand new engine if the factory does not have anything in stock so far as remans  are concerned.   That is more likely with a more obscure engine like the one for the Bravo.

[gsxrpilot]

To answer your question about engine value on selling...

I agree with @Bob - S50 that I'd rather buy a runout engine and do the overhaul/replace/breakin/etc myself.  But if that's not the option... I'm a lot more interested in an engine with between 500 and 1000 hour since... rather than a new 0 hour or low hour engine.

If the engine's got 500 hours in the last 3 to 5 years, I don't care who, how, or what the engine is. I'm happy to buy the plane as having a fresh engine. If' it's got 100 hours or less on it, then I'm more concerned and would probably pass it up and look for a plane with either a runout engine or a 500 hour plus engine.

To me factory fresh or overhaul by an engine shop (not your local A&P) doesn't make a difference.

[rbridges]

In reference to your last question, your block will be limited to some type of overhaul.  Lycoming isn't going to want it for any type of core.  I'm in the same boat.  My engine is the original with one overhaul.

[Hank]

My C had 182 hours the first two years after field overhaul at Signature, then two years of little use. I paid for engine time based on the valuation spreadsheets, and have done well since. Now she's at 828, and of course my logbook has gone up by more.  

It's been a great 11 years, even though my flight time has gone way down the last 3-4 years. Here recently, it's trending back up (a good thing, since I've been noticing my lack of altitude lately).

[FloridaMan]

I know I sound like a paid shill, but I can't say enough good things about Aero Engines of Winchester when it came to my overhaul. I had a factory overhaul from the mid 1990s in my M20F that started making metal at around 2100-2200 hours. That factory overhauled engine from the 1990s certainly did not come with a "0" time logbook and showed 9000+ hours on the core. Aero Engines turnaround time was around two weeks as they used yellowtagged parts for those that would take longer to come back (I was ok with the possible substitution of my 9000 hour case). Aero Engines did reuse some external hardware and the fuel servo looked "not new" when it came back; my IA had some misgivings about that and a second opinion from another confirmed that overhauled fuel servos often look cosmetically a bit old. I cruise in the yellow in my M20F at 5000ft on cold days in level flight with that engine. I was considering going the factory route when it was my time for an engine because I expected fast turnaround times as well, but the factory quoted me 4-6 weeks for the overhaul/exchange. See this thread: 

 

[Andy95W]

2 hours ago, Antares said:

I know I sound like a paid shill, but I can't say enough good things about Aero Engines of Winchester when it came to my overhaul. I had a factory overhaul from the mid 1990s in my M20F that started making metal at around 2100-2200 hours. That factory overhauled engine from the 1990s certainly did not come with a "0" time logbook and showed 9000+ hours on the core. Aero Engines turnaround time was around two weeks as they used yellowtagged parts for those that would take longer to come back (I was ok with the possible substitution of my 9000 hour case). Aero Engines did reuse some external hardware and the fuel servo looked "not new" when it came back; my IA had some misgivings about that and a second opinion from another confirmed that overhauled fuel servos often look cosmetically a bit old. I cruise in the yellow in my M20F at 5000ft on cold days in level flight with that engine. I was considering going the factory route when it was my time for an engine because I expected fast turnaround times as well, but the factory quoted me 4-6 weeks for the overhaul/exchange.

Thanks for posting this.

It always surprises me when people look down on Field Overhauls by a reputable shop and insist that a Factory Overhaul must be "better".  Almost like they think the overhaul was done by an old mechanic drinking Jack Daniels and dropping cigarette ash into the engine case.  Reputable shops are nearly always Repair Stations, governed by CFR Part 145- a standard not easy to attain or maintain.  The FAA has even been known to "encourage" shops that are doing a lot of overhauls to get a Repair Station certificate.

And a little known fact is that the Lycoming factory will, at times, contract with select Repair Stations to produce their "Factory Overhauled Engines".

Getting an overhaul from a reputable shop means you get to keep your Bendix magnetos and 25° BTDC timing, pay less, get the engine faster, and don't have to be forced into having a new Lycoming camshaft and lifters with questionable metallurgy.  And the guy that actually builds your engine might be the same guy anyway.

[RobertGary1]

Field overhaul has a lot more down time since they need your engine before they can start.

Factory overhaul/rebuild has the advantage that they can provide an engine regardless of the condition of your current engine. The field overhaul places aren't building engines from the ground up so depending on the condition of your engine they may not be able to help you. In fact when I called around only one place in the United States was willing to work with me (Western Skyways) everyone else just wanted good, running engines to overhaul. So I went with factory rebuilt.

Factory rebuilt/new is also the only way you're going to get a 2 year warranty.

-Robert

[AlexLev]

28 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

Field overhaul has a lot more down time since they need your engine before they can start.

Factory overhaul/rebuild has the advantage that they can provide an engine regardless of the condition of your current engine. The field overhaul places aren't building engines from the ground up so depending on the condition of your engine they may not be able to help you. In fact when I called around only one place in the United States was willing to work with me (Western Skyways) everyone else just wanted good, running engines to overhaul. So I went with factory rebuilt.

Factory rebuilt/new is also the only way you're going to get a 2 year warranty.

-Robert

@RobertGary1not quite, Penn Yann offers a 3 year or 2000 hour warranty on their overhauled engines IIRC.

I had my overhaul done at Jewell in March (their warranty is not as good over there). They stayed on schedule and I have about 110 hours on the overhauled engine so far.

Edited August 7, 2018 by AlexLev

[RobertGary1]

Also if you are in California make sure you go out of state or you'll get killed in taxes on the parts. Lycoming as a good distributor in Texas that doesn't have a presence in California.

 

-Robert

[aviatoreb]

I forget the name of the business - but I heard from the shop that handled my recent paint job, that they had been working lately with a Canadian company for overhauls with fantastic success.  And fantastic prices with exchange rate especially.  It was in Nova Scotia I believe.  Ummm...maybe it was New Brunswick.  Anyway they were just glowing about how pleased they were with the several overhauls they had done in recent years from them.

[DualRatedFlyer]

4 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I forget the name of the business - but I heard from the shop that handled my recent paint job, that they had been working lately with a Canadian company for overhauls with fantastic success.  And fantastic prices with exchange rate especially.  It was in Nova Scotia I believe.  Ummm...maybe it was New Brunswick.  Anyway they were just glowing about how pleased they were with the several overhauls they had done in recent years from them.

Aerotec by chance?  They did the overhaul on my engine in 2013, prior to my purchase of the aircraft

 

Aerotec Engines Limited
740 Windgate Drive
Beaver Bank, Nova Scotia
Canada B4G 0A6 

[RobertGary1]

How does that work if you have work done in Canada? Do you have to declare the work when you renter the US and pay taxes on it?

 

-Robert

[aviatoreb]

4 hours ago, DualRatedFlyer said:

Aerotec by chance?  They did the overhaul on my engine in 2013, prior to my purchase of the aircraft

 

Aerotec Engines Limited
740 Windgate Drive
Beaver Bank, Nova Scotia
Canada B4G 0A6 

Yes!

[Guest]

4 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

How does that work if you have work done in Canada? Do you have to declare the work when you renter the US and pay taxes on it?

 

-Robert

I’m curious what taxes you’d have to pay?  You don’t have a federal sales tax on every thing that moves or gets touched.  In the past under NAFTA there were no duties, under the current administration that may have changed.

Clarence

[RobertGary1]

1 minute ago, M20Doc said:

I’m curious what taxes you’d have to pay?  You don’t have a federal sales tax on every thing that moves or gets touched.  In the past under NAFTA there were no duties, under the current administration that may have changed.

 Clarence

I'm not entirely sure but I know some states such as California will require you to pay use tax on any items purchased (but not labor). It differs each state. But it would be easy to lie and say you didn't do any of that.

 

-Robert

Edited August 7, 2018 by RobertGary1

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

I’m curious what taxes you’d have to pay?  You don’t have a federal sales tax on every thing that moves or gets touched.  In the past under NAFTA there were no duties, under the current administration that may have changed.

Clarence

True - I’m curious.

[Candy man]

Thanks for all the responses they’ve been really helpful. 

My takeaways are, if I get a Overhaul at a reputable shop I’m saving a ton of money, getting my old case and crank back, which according to many the old metal is better than the new metal. I’m not getting a new engine log book at zero time, I’m not getting roller tappets (is this a big deal?) and I’m not hurting my resale value.  

I received some quotes in the last few days and turnaround is 2-3 weeks unless they find something unexpected. I see no reason to not get the overhaul.

 

Lawrence

[jetdriven]

31 minutes ago, Candy man said:

Thanks for all the responses they’ve been really helpful. 

My takeaways are, if I get a Overhaul at a reputable shop I’m saving a ton of money, getting my old case and crank back, which according to many the old metal is better than the new metal. I’m not getting a new engine log book at zero time, I’m not getting roller tappets (is this a big deal?) and I’m not hurting my resale value.  

Old cases are like cylinders, they are definately not better than new metal. Aluminum work hardens and fatigues.  Eventually it WILL crack.  They often get welded up, either pre-emptively or to fix cracks, the case halves are milled and the case re-line bored. Eventually the case halves get to limits. This happened to a friend. His case cracked, he sent it off for rework and one side was below limits. He paid 8K for another used IO360 case.  A new case is good for 3-4-5K hours before it starts to crack, usually. A reworked, welded, milled case? Well,  Divco, within one year, will reweld any case that leaves their facility. Thats their warranty. Another friend of mine's IO470 on his 205 Cessna did that. 200 hours out of overhaul.  He tore the entire engine down and sent the case back. They rewelded it and he reassembled it. Ask what that costs.

Steel does not fatigue out.  The crank does get turned from time to time and you are allowed .003, .006, and .009 undersize. If you have a -.009 crank and it wont polish out, add 6-8K for that too.  I havent read anywhere that new cranks or rods are worse than reworked old ones. Cams are another story.

Quote

I received some quotes in the last few days and turnaround is 2-3 weeks unless they find something unexpected. I see no reason to not get the overhaul.

 

Lawrence

yes a factory engine gets your roller tappets. Cures the spalling issue and nobody else has, yet.

Edited August 8, 2018 by jetdriven

[mike_elliott]

10 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

yes a factory engine gets your roller tappets. Cures the spalling issue and nobody else has, yet.

With that brings the requirement of replacing those very very expensive roller tappets anytime the case gets split open for whatever reason, gets you a 20 degree timing plate you can spend more money on to get it back to 20 deg.

Byron, does the DHC tappets Lycoming recently came out with not fix the "we dont need no steeenkin heat treating" tappet spalling of previous version? How about the centrilube cam STC? Does it fail in its claims? I dont have any data, just questions.

[jetdriven]

16 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

With that brings the requirement of replacing those very very expensive roller tappets anytime the case gets split open for whatever reason, gets you a 20 degree timing plate you can spend more money on to get it back to 20 deg.

Byron, does the DHC tappets Lycoming recently came out with not fix the "we dont need no steeenkin heat treating" tappet spalling of previous version? How about the centrilube cam STC? Does it fail in its claims? I dont have any data, just questions.

The expensive roller tappets are replaced anytime the case is split for prop strike or overhaul.  Not anytime the case is split. Yes theyre 350$ each, but insurance pays for them in case of prop strike teardown, you pay for a straight overhaul, but at least it makes it to overhaul hours now.

The DLC coated lifters sound like they may have fixed the spalling issue as well. I dont buy the claims of Ney nozzles and Centrilube eliminatinig spalling. they do nothing when the engine sits, which is where the lifter corrosion occurs.

the 20 degree timing issue can be fixed, Ive written pretty extensively about it. Its an optional service instruction. You basically reverse it, since its optional.

 

Edited August 8, 2018 by jetdriven

[mike_elliott]

2 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

The expensive roller tappets are replaced anytime the case is split for prop strike or overhaul.  Not anytime the case is split. Yes theyre 350$ each, but insurance pays for them in case of prop strike teardown, you pay for a straight overhaul, but at least it makes it to overhaul hours now.

Thanks, I thought it was anytime. They are proud of them for sure!

The DLC coated lifters sound like they may have fixed the spalling issue as well. I dont buy the claims of Ney nozzles and Centrilube eliminatinig spalling. they do nothing when the engine sits, which is where the lifter corrosion occurs.

yea, I just dont buy its all caused by corrosion. I threw away a cam that had been sitting in my garage since 1976 in 2012., uncoated with oil, NO surface corrosion. I guess they corrode if they are surrounded by other genuine Lycoming parts, though. Scott Sellmeyer may want to chime in, I know he has the centrilube STC. I also know relying on direct lubrication to the faces of the cam and tappet will result in better lubrication that happenschance splash lubrication.

 

the 20 degree timing issue can be fixed, Ive written pretty extensively about it. Its an optional service instruction. You basically reverse it, since its optional.

Yes It can, but rather silly to have spend at least another AMU  on top of the premium of a reman to get the power back legal department took away out of paranoia of suit. Perhaps I am making too light of this, perhaps the roller tappet engines are weaker and cannot tolerate the 25 degree timing in reality and engineering dictated this, in which case you should just live with the loss of power, accept the higher overhaul cost and enjoy the bandaid  of the "wee dont need no steenkin tappet lubrication"  design and the "wee dont need no steenkin quality tappet metalurgy" of the past product. But like you, most people feel the 25 degree timing is worth the premium to have the SB done to undo what Lycoming fixed.

Thanks Byron

 

 

[Andy95W]

It looks like Candy Man has an M20C, so the issue of 20° timing doesn't apply to him.

As to resale value: after 500 Hours since overhaul, I'd say absolutely no difference where your overhaul came from.  Less than 100 hours, you might sell for a bit more with a factory new or factory overhaul- but not enough to make up for what you pay.

The Lycoming O-360 in the M20C is simple and about as bullet-proof an engine as any.  I'd trust (nearly) any shop to overhaul it well.  

It might be a good idea to ask the shop about camshaft and lifter spalling, and ask for recommendations.  The Lycoming parts seem to be hit or miss, but they might know of PMA alternatives like Superior that have fewer problems.