First Mooney: 231 vs. 201

[xavierde]

Hello,

I’ve been searching for my first Mooney for the past 12 months and studied the pros/cons of the models within my budget. I've found a 231 priced like a 201 (for some reasons) and I am about to send her for a PPI but I am having second thoughts after receiving several warnings about the TSIO 360 (this bird is fitted with the LB version with Intercooler).

In my view, the pros of a 231 vs. 201 are:
- De-iced prop
- Option to climb if caught in icing
- Climb above most WX
- Fly faster in high teens FL
- Better original avionics e.g. KFC200

The cons are:
- Bad reputation of the Continental TSIO 360 vs. the Lycoming in the 201
- Serious engine management required
- Increased maintenance costs

In terms of mission, I am looking at the following:
- 2 pax & luggage for long weekends
- 3h legs --could push my wife to 4h if it’s to go somewhere sunny
- UK-based
- Trips to Western Europe/Nordics/Alps

I’ve heard so many contradicting advice that I am a bit lost now and would love to hear from the experts experienced with both birds (if possible as owners/mechanics/pilots).

Thank you !

 

[gsxrpilot]

All things being equal, condition, avionics, etc. a 201 should be selling for less than a 231. At least here in the US. In addition to what you said, typically the 201's have better range and better useful load. But 3 to 4 hour legs with two people will be fine in either model. 

If looking at turbos, the 252 is a very nice upgrade over a 231. They don't have the engine management workload of the 231, better cooling, etc.

[xavierde]

9 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

All things being equal, condition, avionics, etc. a 201 should be selling for less than a 231. At least here in the US. In addition to what you said, typically the 201's have better range and better useful load. But 3 to 4 hour legs with two people will be fine in either model. 

If looking at turbos, the 252 is a very nice upgrade over a 231. They don't have the engine management workload of the 231, better cooling, etc.

Yes, this is due to damage history (gear up LDG). I guess that's going to be an issue when I want to sell this one...

A 252 would be my first choice but that's another price-tag and there aren't many on the market. I'm actually considering getting one with a near TBO engine e.g. 

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/17757011/1986-mooney-m20k-252tse

[gsxrpilot]

4 minutes ago, xavierde said:

Yes, this is due to damage history (gear up LDG). I guess that's going to be an issue when I want to sell this one...

A 252 would be my first choice but that's another price-tag and there aren't many on the market. I'm actually considering getting one with a near TBO engine e.g. 

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/17757011/1986-mooney-m20k-252tse

Sorry, I actually mis-typed that. Over here we see 201's going for MORE than 231's. So a 231 should be cheaper than a 201. Sorry for that. I wouldn't worry about the damage history as long as it's been properly repaired. 

My 252 has been gear-up'd three times during its life by previous owners.

[N231BN]

In most cases you get more for your money with a 231, they were better equipped from the factory. Engine management is not that difficult once you are properly trained, an -LB with an intercooler is a good engine.

Useful load varies by airplane obviously but I still have over 700 lbs left with 4 hours of gas running LOP. If you are planning on flying at 10k or higher on a regular basis you will not be satisfied with a 201.

[chrisk]

One has to be careful when reading articles about aircraft. Everyone has an opinion.   You might look at:  http://www.mooneyland.com/is-a-turbo-mooney-a-better-buy-than-a-201/ for a different opinion.   With the 231, you will avoid hot start issues and the dreaded Lycoming cam spalling issues.   --My point is, there is no perfect airplane and all have trade offs. 

I've had a Mooney M20K 231 for 5 years.  It's been a relatively  trouble free plane and maintenance costs have been reasonable.  I was able to purchase it significantly cheaper than a 201, and it came with features I really like:  Speed breaks, built in O2, and a hot prop.  I wouldn't trade it for a 201either.     

As for extra maintenance, I do have a theory:   An engine monitor is essential.  My normal gauge on  the panel shows CHT is really very low, but my JPI shows middle cylinders that can be right at 400 degrees.  If I didn't have the JPI, I'm sure I (and others) would push the temperatures even higher.  And eventually those higher temperatures will cause cylinders to be replaced. --So my theory is folks without an engine monitor are over heating their cylinders and suffering more engine maintenance.   That said, 231s have more equipment.  An example is pressurized mags, hot prop, O2, etc.  The more you have, the more there is to maintain.   

[jetdriven]

A 231 engine costs a great deal more to overhaul than a 201's Lycoming, but the airplane has more capability. You may need a turbo and a hot prop to deal with the Alps over there, especially given the below freezing nature of clouds and the prevalence of them.  The mission will guide you to the right airplane, just be honest about the mission. We lived in TX when we bought our plane, but living in DC now, I can see the value in a turbocharged and deiced airplane. We could use the plane nonstop in the winter to go skiiing or whatever.

[carusoam]

Tough choice, get used to it... 

As in, making the decision that a compressor for your engine is... positive or negative.

1) The turbo allows you to fly in the high teens...

2) The turbo costs a few percent more to operate until you are in the high teens...

3) To fly in the high teens, using O₂ is part of the game...

4) To fly in the high teens, it takes a lot of time/distance to get there...

 

Putting this into perspective...

1) my main flight is 200nm long.

2) It doesn’t make much sense to climb more than 12,500’.

3) Four people on board, not interested in using oxygen.

4) A normally aspirated engine made the most sense.

Same decision has lasted 18 years.

My dream plane is an Acclaim.  Still just a dream...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

 

[chrisk]

15 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

A 231 engine costs a great deal more to overhaul than a 201's Lycoming, but the airplane has more capability. You may need a turbo and a hot prop to deal with the Alps over there, especially given the below freezing nature of clouds and the prevalence of them.  The mission will guide you to the right airplane, just be honest about the mission. We lived in TX when we bought our plane, but living in DC now, I can see the value in a turbocharged and deiced airplane. We could use the plane nonstop in the winter to go skiiing or whatever.

Just to put real numbers to it.  I used airpower as a pricing source.  A rebuilt Lycoming comes in at $37K, the continental is priced at $49K.   Assuming TBO, the engine cost per hour is $27 for the Continental and 18 for the Lycoming.  Realistically, the Lycoming will use 2 gph less per hour for similar performance.  So, maybe a $20 per hour difference in operating costs.  --Of course, factory pricing can change any time up or down.

 

[jetdriven]

What's the firewall forward cost for a total engine overhaul? I know from experience the Lycoming is around 30-35 grand and I've heard 50K for a 231.

[carusoam]

When it comes to basic ownership experience...

It is often a kinder gentler experience to start with a plane with an NA engine...

 

When you build the experience that says...

1) I use my plane for 500nm flights often...

2) I use my plane to climb over 14k’ to clear mountains...

3) My copilot enjoys flying and helps out with the process all of the time...

4) I like the MB or LB engine because...

5) I Love Jeff’s Intercooler because the Compressor outlet temperature is X°F lower...

6) I really dig the automated control of the upper deck pressure using so-and-so’s pressure controller...

7) I have a great waterfall O2 system in my hangar...

You are a technical traveler, the 252 is the bird for you....

 

There is a middle zone of adding a TN to a NA engine or getting a TC’d engine with no pressure controller or intercooler.  These are great when you are technical, and controlling the budget....

 

Dreams have a tendency to die when you take on too much (responsibility, expense, complexity...)

Get to know your mission.  Find a plane that meets your mission.  Get you financial administrator on board with your mission...

All will be well....

Go Mooney!

-a-

 

 

[Oldguy]

Andrew @Hyett6420 might be a good one to weigh in on this thread. He has a 201 based in Elstree (I believe) and has regularly made North Sea crossings as well as into Western Europe.

Let's see if he chimes in....

[ArtVandelay]

With the 231, you will avoid hot start issues and the dreaded Lycoming cam spalling issues.

But in return you get cylinder issues, a NA Lycoming can make TBO without major surgery.

[chrisk]

21 minutes ago, carusoam said:

When it comes to basic ownership experience...

It is often a kinder gentler experience to start with a plane with an NA engine...

 

When you build the experience that says...

1) I use my plane for 500nm flights often...

2) I use my plane to climb over 14k’ to clear mountains...

3) My copilot enjoys flying and helps out with the process all of the time...

4) I like the MB or LB engine because...

5) I Love Jeff’s Intercooler because the Compressor outlet temperature is X°F lower...

6) I really dig the automated control of the upper deck pressure using so-and-so’s pressure controller...

7) I have a great waterfall O2 system in my hangar...

You are a technical traveler, the 252 is the bird for you....

 

There is a middle zone of adding a TN to a NA engine or getting a TC’d engine with no pressure controller or intercooler.  These are great when you are technical, and controlling the budget....

 

Dreams have a tendency to die when you take on too much (responsibility, expense, complexity...)

Get to know your mission.  Find a plane that meets your mission.  Get you financial administrator on board with your mission...

All will be well....

Go Mooney!

-a-

 

 

Funny, and I agree.   About half of my trips are to the coast and about 200nm.   A J would be perfect for those trips.  It's the longer trips where the turbo is great.  

[xavierde]

Thanks a lot !

Our typical trip is 400nm to reach our second home. We've been doing this once/twice a month for the past few years, commercially or in a PA28 (excruciatingly slow).

[DanM20C]

5 hours ago, xavierde said:

The cons are:
- Bad reputation of the Continental TSIO 360 vs. the Lycoming in the 201
- Serious engine management required
- Increased maintenance costs

 I think the 231 is one of the best values in Mooneys.  They got a bad reputation in the early days do to engine management practices, much of that reputation isn't deserved today.  Today we have great monitoring tools available to us and a better understanding of how to operate and maintain them (Full Throttle FF is very important).  Most have been converted to LB's and many have intercoolers and Merlyns.  If operated correctly with a good engine monitor there is no reason they can't be as reliable as their Lycoming bothers.  It terms of just temperatures my TSIO-360-LB runs cooler than most of the IO-360s I have flown behind. Granted the Lycomings are probably more tolerable of higher temps.

Engine management isn't as easy as a J, but it's not too bad.  As I said above it helps the health and longevity of the engine if you watch it closely.

In the long run the maintenance costs of a 231should be more than the J.  But this is very aircraft specific and it is difficult to put a number on it.  There are more things that could break and the OH cost is more.  But I would guess the overall cost difference would be less than most would think.  I do most of the wrenching on my airplane and I really enjoy the engine access on the 231.  I actually look forward to oil changes, no crazy tricks needed to not spill oil.

I have really enjoyed having a turbo.  The additional 10K ft  of optional cruising altitudes gives amazing flexibility when trying to travel XC.  If you are flying 400nm legs once or twice a month I think you would get good use out of the turbo. 

Either way, 201/231 are fantastic airplanes.

As Anthony says "Go Mooney!"

Cheers,

Dan

 

[jaylw314]

4 minutes ago, DanM20C said:

I do most of the wrenching on my airplane and I really enjoy the engine access on the 231.  I actually look forward to oil changes, no crazy tricks needed to not spill oil.

Damn you!

[chrisk]

53 minutes ago, DanM20C said:

  I do most of the wrenching on my airplane and I really enjoy the engine access on the 231.  I actually look forward to oil changes, no crazy tricks needed to not spill oil.

I change the oil most of the time on my 231.  I NEVER look forward to it.  And I always spill at least a little oil when I remove the filter.  That said, I change my own oil so I know it has been done properly.

[DanM20C]

1 minute ago, chrisk said:

I change the oil most of the time on my 231.  I NEVER look forward to it.  And I always spill at least a little oil when I remove the filter.  That said, I change my own oil so I know it has been done properly.

I did 25+ Oil Changes on my C.  Going to the 231 was a pure joy in the oil change department!

Cheers,

Dan

[Oldguy]

1 hour ago, xavierde said:

Thanks a lot !

Our typical trip is 400nm to reach our second home. We've been doing this once/twice a month for the past few years, commercially or in a PA28 (excruciatingly slow).

Where are you based now?

[anonymouse]

FWIW, I bought my first Mooney a few months ago, and it's a 231. It's currently sitting in the paint shop, but the benefits of a turbo (especially going East, or above clouds) are far more useful/often than I thought they would be before I bought a turbo plane. Once I got my fuel flow setup properly done, it runs pretty cool. It's like any other plane - once you get used to where all the knobs and buttons are and have a good checklist, it's not particularly challenging to fly. Flying is expensive, so the difference between one or the other on a per hour basis wasn't really a decisive factor for me.

[KLRDMD]

2 hours ago, teejayevans said:

But in return you get cylinder issues, a NA Lycoming can make TBO without major surgery.

This is ancient history and not applicable. The Continental TSIO-360 is a reliable, robust and mostly maintenance free engine - *if* is it run properly.

[Emmet]

I was in the same situation a couple of years back, decided for the 231 and never regretted it. Flying IFR in Europe the turbo really helps, because you usually get better routes when flying higher. Crossed the Alps with a friend in his NA B36 on a summer day last year. Climbing to 10.000ft took pretty long and had us divert to a shallower route - doing the same in the Mooney was a no brainer in FL160. I heard the same engine stories as you, but even with my GB I can keep the CHTs below 380 which is one major key for engine longevity. Engine management is definitely more complicated, but no black magic.

[CaptRJM]

I just celebrated owning my 231 for 10 years. It has been a wonderful traveling machine and not once has it failed to dispatch. 

My typical mission in 4-600 miles with 2 people. At that distance climbing to the mid teens is not a issue and typically you are above the weather. Several times I’ve been able to climb above reported icing which I wouldn’t been able to do in a non turbo aircraft. 

If you have a decent engine monitor engine management is not all that difficult provided you would understand the principles and have had proper training.  My plane is a -LB with Merlyn and intercooler.  CHTs in cruise are typically around 350 degrees running 28” at 2500 RPM LOP.  I now have almost 800 hours on my cylinders and lowest compression is 72.  Engine burns nearly no oil and passengers have said it feels turbine smooth.

I think that properly managed the TSIO 360 is a fine engine and doesn’t deserve the reputation caused by ham fisted pilots.

 

[xavierde]

47 minutes ago, Oldguy said:

Where are you based now?

London, although likely moving to the US in the next few months