Got ramp checked

[Bob_Belville]

14 minutes ago, kpaul said:

So if I read that correctly there is no longer a Flight Review requirement, it is now only "encouraged"?

The FAA no longer uses the term Biennial Flight Review. This term implied that pilots only needed currency training once every 24 calendar-months. The FAA encourages currency training as often as appropriate to a pilot’s individual needs. Consequently, the FAA now uses the term Flight Review.

Pilots should design a currency program tailored to their individual operating environments and needs. In some cases, pilots may integrate currency criteria with normal operations to reduce the need for separate currency flights. For example, pilots could incorporate additional takeoffs and landings or specialized takeoffs and landings such as short or soft field into a previously-scheduled flight.

 

Kevin, I'll be very interested in the answer to your point. I believe that the term biennial has been dropped (several years ago) but that the 24 month requirement is still in effect.  

[mike_elliott]

8 hours ago, toto said:

PPS will put him in touch with a local attorney at AOPA's cost

Are you sure? i Thought the PPS would basically answer a few questions, simple advice, then is a referral service to a attorney at your cost, not a form of lawyer insurance

.#bettercallsaul

[N6758N]

50 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

The FAA obviously has far too many inspectors, Transport Canada got out of the ramp check business years ago due to staffing.

For instrument rated pilots does your Instrument check ride qualify as the biennial?

Clarence

Clarence,

Yes, a check ride counts as a flight review and resets the 2 year clock. 

[Danb]

The IPC and Flight review are two separate items.

[midlifeflyer]

9 hours ago, tigers2007 said:

I'm curious how this would have ended if you complied with his initial request to see the medical and pilot certificates (from the grip of your hand) but did not speak a word thereafter. A similar technique has saved friends of mine from serious consequences in other situations...

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What do you mean? Are you buying into the silly myth that an ASI touching your pilot certificate means you "surrendered" it and he can keep it?

[midlifeflyer]

33 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

Are you sure? i Thought the PPS would basically answer a few questions, simple advice, then is a referral service to a attorney at your cost, not a form of lawyer insurance

.#bettercallsaul

The PPS phone will answer a few basic questions and, if appropriate to the situation, provide contact information for a few Plan attorneys in your area. And yes, the Plan pays for attorneys fees. It's up to a point, but in most cases, the matter is resolved before the amount is reached. I haven’t needed to exceed it yet.

Here’s the Plan benefit summary from AOPA...

 

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

Kevin, I'll be very interested in the answer to your point. I believe that the term biennial has been dropped (several years ago) but that the 24 month requirement is still in effect.  

The 24 month requirement is still in effect, but the FAA does want to encourage pilots to get more recurrent training. That’s also the reason for the Wings program allowing the accumulation of credits to count as a FR.

[Amelia]

I got ramp-checked the first day I owned the current Mooney, a few months ago.. First time in 40 years, during transition training.. Ducks were in a row, thankfully, and there was no problem at all, though I was privately irked that my “public servant” had nothing better to do on a pretty day than hang around a gas pump in the middle of the Everglades, trolling for silly fish. I thought grumpily what a waste of tax dollars, that the skies were not one bit safer for his gotcha efforts, which, in my case, were futile. So I now have a brand new Basic Med sign-off, a couple of bulky papers to be affixed to my logbook. Which I don’t carry with me, except during Flight Reviews. How to appease the FAA in that case? Do I carry my soon-expired third-class still? Photocopy and shrink the doc’s sign-off? What’s the best practice?

[StevenL757]

7 hours ago, Marauder said:

I think they are no longer called “bi” anything. I was told at my last review they are now called “Flight Reviews”.
 

 

Exactly right.  Related, the IPC is still an “IPC”.

Steve

[Bartman]

1 hour ago, Danb said:

Jeez, I know of a mechanic who has/had nonpilots taxi planes for service, no license ?

My comment was basically a subtle hint that if the log book does not have every single recent flight recorded then maybe that's a good thing, but I think it is more difficult to deny anything in the ATC system or something posted on an open forum.  I don't see any violation from what was posted and I've never been checked, but if they found something I would be preparing.  I figure if they did find something it may open the door to look for more information if they desire, and that would include simple things such as log entries and I would be limiting information on a public forum.  Ultimately I think this goes nowhere and just a good scare but I would be prepared to give more information. Maybe I'm just too paranoid ?

I keep a dry erase board in the hangar that has dates for recurrent items such as flight review, medical, annual inspection, ELT and battery, and date/hours for such things as oil change and spark plug cleaning. Take a picture just in case.

[tigers2007]

What do you mean? Are you buying into the silly myth that an ASI touching your pilot certificate means you "surrendered" it and he can keep it?

At the moment you relinquish control of anything, the possibility of getting it back decreases immensely. This includes physical ID’s and also personal information. I am a bureaucratic “enforcer” and deal with this situation on a regular basis (i.e. taking ID’s and personal info). If someone doesn’t give me what I’m looking for, I generally find other ways BUT I legally have those avenues. A civilian administrator with no search authority doesn’t.

I do agree with you that in most situations “you catch more flies with honey than vinegar”. Therefore handing the pilot certificate (property of the USGov) to the inspector and the medical certificate wouldn’t be a bad idea. But it isn’t stated anywhere in the CFR that the pilot must surrender those documents to an FAA inspector during a ramp check. The pilot also has the right to remain silent (as guaranteed by the Fifth Amendment).

Over my lifetime of public safety I have experienced countless people skate off with no repercussions solely due to them withholding the necessary self-incriminating evidence needed to charge them with a crime or violation. It is their right to remain silent - there is nothing we can do to compel them.

I personally carry a well-rounded legal representation liability plan for my career. Now I’m wondering if I should also consider AOPA’s legal plan.



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[jetdriven]

Just now, tigers2007 said:

 

At the moment you relinquish control of anything, the possibility of getting it back decreases immensely. This includes physical ID’s and also personal information. I am a bureaucratic “enforcer” and deal with this situation on a regular basis (i.e. taking ID’s and personal info). If someone doesn’t give me what I’m looking for, I generally find other ways BUT I legally have those avenues. A civilian administrator with no search authority doesn’t.

I do agree with you that in most situations “you catch more flies with honey than vinegar”. Therefore handing the pilot certificate (property of the USGov) to the inspector and the medical certificate wouldn’t be a bad idea. But it isn’t stated anywhere in the CFR that the pilot must surrender those documents to an FAA inspector during a ramp check. 

 

Presenting them for inspection is not the same as surrendering.  Even though he is holding it, you are still merely “presenting” it. Find me a SINGLE instance of an inspector taking a pilots certificate during a ramp check and calling it “surrender”. How many times have you been ramp checked?  Pulling the “I’m not letting go of my certificate” game is what dramatically increases your chances of the ramp check going sour because you’re playing games, you’re telling the inspector you don’t trust him, and for no good reason. Try that with a cop next time you’re stopped and see how much more likely you are to get a ticket. 

If you really don’t trust the guy ask for his 110A and write his info down. 

Seriously this is bad information. 

[Oldguy]

FAA must be getting bored. We had one come out to look over a helicopter used by the police department, and she decided to visit every mechanic on the field and ask for calibration certs, license docs, and everything she could think of. My mechanic had to effectively shut down for two hours while she scoured his shop and paperwork only to grudgingly say everything was in order.

[kpaul]

I guess it was due to being raised by an FAA Operation/Safety inspector and having spent my formative years hanging out in the FSDO, but I have no fear of the FAA.  In fact my PP check ride was given by a newer FAA guy that needed experience giving checks.  After a 4 hour ground eval and 2 hour flight I was given my temporary certificate.  I didn’t know any better at the time that this was excessive, but the rest of the office beat him up pretty good.

[ragedracer1977]

You got checked out in your Mooney post ppl check ride,  right?  Many CFI's will consider that a flight review.   Might ask the CFI that checked you out

[steingar]

I think the next time one of those guys walks up to check out me and mine my answer will be no halo ingles senior

[tigers2007]

Try that with a cop next time you’re stopped and see how much more likely you are to get a ticket. 

Who cares about the “ticket” in lieu of an avalanche. Being brutally submissive leads to a full vehicle search, finding a nearly empty bag of weed or cocaine left behind by some kid who rode in the back seat two years ago and fell out of his/her pocket between the seats, or other questionable items in the car that lead to more questioning and exploration etc etc etc. YES - I agree with your point IF and ONLY IF you are 100% clean and have nothing to hide and know 100% that everything is in order. I’ve dealt with countless people who apparently were not 100% in order like they thought. I tell friends and family to do a thorough search of their newly acquired used car or after their miscreant friends go for a ride with them. I’ve seen way too many situations go from so-so to absolute horrible. All because the person was “too honest”...

There was a day when that hypothetical bag of weed found rotting on the floor between the rear seats would be stomped out on the shoulder of the road and gone forever. Thanks to the increase public inquiry, the practice of common-sense discretion went out the window when HD cameras capture every one of my movements.

Regardless, there is a line that needs to be drawn when conversing with any on-duty enforcement minded bureaucrat. Okay - you’re correct about handing over the ARROW or cert documents. But answering any questions surely increases the potential for problems.


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[Bolter]

3 hours ago, N6758N said:

Clarence,

Yes, a check ride counts as a flight review and resets the 2 year clock. 

 

3 hours ago, Danb said:

The IPC and Flight review are two separate items.

A Check Ride, Instrument Proficiency Check (IPC) and BFR (Flight Review) are 3 different items.  However, a Check Ride counts as a BFR, so if you have a check ride to get a new rating within 24 months, you are still good for BFR requirements. 

The IPC does not automatically meet all BFR requirements, so you would need to specify to your CFII to include the required BFR content in the process, and give two sign offs at the end of the day.  IMHO it is better to stay current and never require the IPC.  I personally use the MAPA PPP course as my way to keep current on BFR and IPC as they come by my area every 2 years, right on time, plus I think the course content is a great way to stay real-life current.  

-dan

[N6758N]

2 hours ago, steingar said:

I think the next time one of those guys walks up to check out me and mine my answer will be no halo ingles senior

Too bad there is the part in the FARs about being English proficient...

[Ron McBride]

3 hours ago, Amelia said:

I got ramp-checked the first day I owned the current Mooney, a few months ago.. First time in 40 years, during transition training.. Ducks were in a row, thankfully, and there was no problem at all, though I was privately irked that my “public servant” had nothing better to do on a pretty day than hang around a gas pump in the middle of the Everglades, trolling for silly fish. I thought grumpily what a waste of tax dollars, that the skies were not one bit safer for his gotcha efforts, which, in my case, were futile. So I now have a brand new Basic Med sign-off, a couple of bulky papers to be affixed to my logbook. Which I don’t carry with me, except during Flight Reviews. How to appease the FAA in that case? Do I carry my soon-expired third-class still? Photocopy and shrink the doc’s sign-off? What’s the best practice?

I have a copy of my Basic Med in my flight bag, and a copy in the glove box with the weight and balance info.  I did this for my Special Issuance for years also.

Ron

[kerry]

I have a friend who had no medical, no biannual, his airplane was out of annual.  He landed wheel up in Kingman AZ.  The airport insisted contacting the FAA.  My friend went back with a fresh prop and flew it back to his airpark the next day.  When the FAA got a hold of him concerning how the airplane got back to his home base and he straight up told them he flew it back.  His license was suspended 1 year and no fines.  No attorney's involved.  I was surprised how lenient the FAA was.

[Amelia]

Thanks, Ron.

And thanks also to those who pointed out that there is a significant difference between bi-annual and biennial. The (biennial) flight review is required every two years.  Bi-annual is when my car insurance bill arrives. Every six months.

[flyboy0681]

I'm anal when it comes to these types of regs. Just in case of problems, I always schedule my medical and FR one month before they are due to expire and stay current AND proficient in terms of instrument requirements with absolutely no fudging, because everything can be easily verified. My papers are always in order and easily accessible. I fall under he category here of those who said that if you have nothing to hide there is no problem in cooperating.

[midlifeflyer]

4 hours ago, tigers2007 said:

 

At the moment you relinquish control of anything, the possibility of getting it back decreases immensely. This includes physical ID’s and also personal information. I am a bureaucratic “enforcer” and deal with this situation on a regular basis (i.e. taking ID’s and personal info). If someone doesn’t give me what I’m looking for, I generally find other ways BUT I legally have those avenues. A civilian administrator with no search authority doesn’t.

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I can honestly say I have never had an problem handing my license and registration over to a LEO on a traffic stop. And yes, I know (probably better than most) that an officer on a traffic stop could hold my paperwork hostage until I agree to a illegal search. Maybe I'm just not paranoid enough. Or know enough to realize he'd so it whether he held my drivers license in his hands or not.

Personally, if  I got the weird completely oddball ASI in some non-local district who enjoys exceeding his authority, it's much simpler to deal with than the LEO.  I'd say, "have a nice day," turn around and walk away.  I'd go to https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/airmen_services/ and request a temporary fax of my certificatesa nd their replacement.  In the "reason for replacement" dropdown, I'd select "stolen." That, BTW, is "personally." What I would do, not anyone else.  For anyone else, say "have a nice day," walk away, and, and call AOPA if you are on a Plan or an aviation attorney if not.

But your thoughts on the subject, especially based on your experience as a bureaucratic enforcer, are definitely helpful. I hope you don't mind me referring to them next time I cover ramp checks at an enforcement seminar.

[jetdriven]

5 hours ago, tigers2007 said:

 

Who cares about the “ticket” in lieu of an avalanche. Being brutally submissive leads to a full vehicle search, finding a nearly empty bag of weed or cocaine left behind by some kid who rode in the back seat two years ago and fell out of his/her pocket between the seats, or other questionable items in the car that lead to more questioning and exploration etc etc etc. YES - I agree with your point IF and ONLY IF you are 100% clean and have nothing to hide and know 100% that everything is in order. I’ve dealt with countless people who apparently were not 100% in order like they thought. I tell friends and family to do a thorough search of their newly acquired used car or after their miscreant friends go for a ride with them. I’ve seen way too many situations go from so-so to absolute horrible. All because the person was “too honest”...

There was a day when that hypothetical bag of weed found rotting on the floor between the rear seats would be stomped out on the shoulder of the road and gone forever. Thanks to the increase public inquiry, the practice of common-sense discretion went out the window when HD cameras capture every one of my movements.

Regardless, there is a line that needs to be drawn when conversing with any on-duty enforcement minded bureaucrat. Okay - you’re correct about handing over the ARROW or cert documents. But answering any questions surely increases the potential for problems.


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You’re putting words in my mouth. I said present the documents for inspection and don’t pull the amateur stunt of refusing to turn loose of them. And turn over the relevant required docs, such as weight and balance data. Otherwise lawyer up. 

Again, how many ramp checks have you been subjected to? I think it’s relevant.