N370MM NTSB Final Report

[aggiepilot04]

9 minutes ago, yvesg said:

I just purchased a portable O2 tank last week. It is getting certified this week. On long trips (in the past) I would borrow one from another Mooney owner but since I will have my own, I am more likely now to fly high due to the availability of the tank. 

My M20C is not turbo and I should set a personal limit (also aircraft limit) somewhere between 15K and 17K. My question is: If I fly at 17K and have an O2 failure, how useful would be a backup emergency cannister (like the ones suggested above)? Is the useful conciousness long enough at that altitude to allow emergency descent below 10K without the need of such a thing?

Thanks.

Yves

I think the point is that it's easy enough to get down from 17k without a backup plan (assuming the problem is detected reasonably quickly).  That chart shows 30 mins + of useful consciousness, and you're looking at 5 mins tops to get down to thicker air.

[gsxrpilot]

Take a copilot along and go try it out. One of you take off the O2 mask and monitor pulse ox and consciousness while the other stays on the O2. See how it affects you. Everyone is affected differently.

If you're in Texas, I'm happy to take you up to the flight levels in my 252 with the ships O2 bottle and you can see how it affects you.

[bradp]

2 hours ago, donkaye said:

If I remember correctly, according to Dr. Bob Achtel it is Pressure Altitude that is important, not Density Altitude.

It’s the alveolar gas equation that takes into account water content and pressure but not temperature as it’s assumed that your lung gas is 37c in you.  So you’re both half correct.  

 

My dog dog had a seizure at 6500 yesterday- probably from hypoxia induced hyperventilation and hypocalcemia.  We went down to 4500 in a hurry and he was fine after some pets.  He’s getting too old to fly and needs to hang up his wings now.   Altitude affects everyone differently.  

Also don’t assume you can descend immediately if you’re in the FLs.  Ice or terrain may hinder descending to a safe altitude if you have an O2 system problem. Probably need out plan A, B, C.  

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

I don’t have a turbo but do like to fly higher on cross country than most GA pilots without turbos fly. I can also tell you monitoring my O2 levels, that when I am at 9 or 10k, I’m running lower 02 saturation levels than I want to be at. I also know that toking on supplemental O2 lowers my chance of getting a headache.

 

 

 

I spend a fair amount of my XC time at 8500-10,000, sometimes 11,000 if wind over terrain is bad. Used to get headaches, and attribute them to low oxygen levels for the preceding 2-3 hours. Then I bought a new headset, Quiet Technologies Halo lightweight set, and I don't get headaches when I fly any more . . . My flight habits and patterns have not changed significantly, other than a slight decline in hours since I now live closer to the family.

[MIm20c]

Just wanted to thank all the contributors to this thread. Very good info and it reinforces the use of O2 tank when flying at higher altitudes. 

[aviatoreb]

24 minutes ago, bradp said:

 

Also don’t assume you can descend immediately if you’re in the FLs.  Ice or terrain may hinder descending to a safe altitude if you have an O2 system problem. Probably need out plan A, B, C.  

Exactly.  If you are flying high on a lovely severe clear day to enjoy a big tail wind, then descent is a much better option.  But there can be scenarios where immediate descent might be a problem - due to weather, (ice, etc), terrain (rocks), or traffic (but then there is the emergency word - still watch out).  So a back up plan of a second o2 source is good too.

[peevee]

15 hours ago, bradp said:

I did recently watch a video about an autopilot that required a response from the pilot every x minutes or a descent would automatically be initiated (something from Garmin).  This plus an O2 saturation alarm with some sort of feed forward oxygen delivery loop would be the only methods by which I’d feel comfortable flying in the flight levels in an unpressurized aircraft.  

the cirrus does this

[aviatoreb]

1 minute ago, peevee said:

the cirrus does this

I think someone is shopping for a Cirrus.  What years you looking at?

[peevee]

13 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I think someone is shopping for a Cirrus.  What years you looking at?

Already under contract on a 08 with perspective. Goes into ppi today.

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, peevee said:

Already under contract on a 08 with perspective. Goes into ppi today.

Good luck!

[peevee]

58 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Good luck!

Part of me thinks  we should have bought an acclaim...

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, peevee said:

Part of me thinks  we should have bought an acclaim...

You shouldn't have said that around these parts.

Cuz we all know the FACT that an acclaim is waaaaay cooler.  And faster.  Waaaaay!

Edited October 24, 2017 by aviatoreb

[peevee]

14 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

You shouldn't have said that around these parts.

Cuz we all know the FACT that an acclaim is waaaaay cooler.  And faster.  Waaaaay!

Faster but not as comfortable and has one door

 

The funny thing is I had k time so insurance just let me blast off in the rocket. The sr22 basically needs a type rating 

[rainman]

As has been mentioned before, use a pulse oximeter. Do not think you can "tell when you get hypoxic" based on prior rides in the hypobaric chamber. Have a backup oxygen system/bottle. Monitor your oxygen saturation prior to getting high enough to be even close to needing to wear the mask/cannula. I have backup oxygen and a backup pulse oximeter. Fly safe. Ray

[aviatoreb]

24 minutes ago, peevee said:

Faster but not as comfortable and has one door

False on both accounts. Being tall I chose a Mooney over several other brands, including Cirrus, in part because it is more comfortable.  Faster.  Better looking too.  Those are irrefutable facts.

One door - you get partial credit on that half-true answer.  You must be talking about the those OLD Acclaims.

>The funny thing is I had k time so insurance just let me blast off in the rocket. The sr22 basically needs a type rating 

Is that because of the parachute?  Or the safety record.

Doh!  

Im just pulling your leg - cuz one shouldn't sell a perfectly good Mooney for a Cirrus and then expect anything but a rubbing around these parts.  I bet it will be a beautiful airplane.  Hey I am currently bidding a contract joint with some folks at CU Boulder and if we get it...I will sometimes drive my Rocket out that way.  If you want to have a "cooler-airplane" show-down?

[peevee]

Give me a shout. I'll take you up and ruin you.

[aviatoreb]

16 minutes ago, peevee said:

Give me a shout. I'll take you up and ruin you.

I've been in Cirrus - if I was going to be ruined - I would already...

But we can have a beer and brag about who thinks they have the better airplane.  :-)

[peevee]

Just now, aviatoreb said:

I've been in Cirrus - if I was going to be ruined - I would already...

But we can have a beer and brag about who thinks they have the better airplane.  :-)

Haha, fine.

If our plane is out somewhere you're welcome to our hangar. We have a gas tug and Mooney bars.

[aviatoreb]

23 minutes ago, peevee said:

Haha, fine.

If our plane is out somewhere you're welcome to our hangar. We have a gas tug and Mooney bars.

:-)

[mike_elliott]

3 hours ago, peevee said:

Part of me thinks  we should have bought an acclaim...

Thats the part of you that is still thinking correctly.

[carusoam]

When picking a plane....

Start with the engine first...

TNIO550 sounds like a great way to start...   

Surprised nobody put a turbine in the SR22, or did they...?

Best regards,

-a-

[gsxrpilot]

5 hours ago, carusoam said:

When picking a plane....

Start with the engine first...

And then check the gear. It should be a retract or tail wheel. All others are trainers. 

[aviatoreb]

23 hours ago, donkaye said:

I wouldn't think too hard about it, Dan.  On the recommendation of a student I bought one.  To make a long story short, I couldn't get my O2 sats above 92% even on the highest flow rate.  I spent the first hour of the first and only flight with it being completely distracted with the O2 system.  Additionally, the noise of breathing coming through the headset was annoying and distracting.  I disconnect the system and never used it again.  ..

Hi Don and all,

I actually really really like that I can hear myself breathing when using a pulse delivery system, the O2D2.  Besides saving O2, the fact that I hear the pulse every time I breath means I know each and every breath that the system is in fact delivering O2.  I figure this is a good feature protection against failure.  Besides its fun sounding like Darth Vader.  "ATC: N10933, descend and maintain eleven thousand".  "Me: I am your father Luke."

[JohnB]

Oxygen chamber training was really helpful for this. In my Prote chamber experience I was at 28,000-30k ft simulated, and I could do VERY simple things for around 5 minutes, and I *might* be able to navigate the plane down, but could probably push one button (altitude preselect to a non hypoxic altitude above terrain) and not worry that much about passing out. Hypoxic chamber training is Highly recommended that *EVERYONE* who flies over 9,000 feet to do, so you'll know your symptoms right away so you can check and correct them before you pass out.

I have no problem flying above 15k and in the flight levels with oxygen and do it regularly, as the air is generally smoother, and sometimes you can get awesome tailwinds, and you have the sky to yourself pretty much. I have several pulse oximeters that I use religiously. One of them blinks and has a beep (which I'm not sure I could hear) but I might see the blink and since I know my personal hypoxic symptoms (which are different for everyone) I would likely know when my sats are low. I do also carry a few of those oxygen in a can canisters, in case of catastrophic failure of my onboard oxygen system to be able to keep my brain happy while im doing an emergency descent if oxygen failure were to ever occur.

JB

[LANCECASPER]

9 hours ago, JohnB said:

I do also carry a few of those oxygen in a can canisters, in case of catastrophic failure of my onboard oxygen system to be able to keep my brain happy while im doing an emergency descent if oxygen failure were to ever occur.

JB

Same here - well worth it for a built-in oxygen failure.

https://www.amazon.com/Boost-Oxygen-Natural-Large-Green/dp/B0189UU85Y/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1509026198&sr=8-8&keywords=boost+oxygen+can