Well, not good reading.

[Jerry 5TJ]

30 minutes ago, CaptainAB said:

.....

a retractable 4/5 seat 200 knot airplane has got some serious marketability. I think it comes down to three things that are repeatedly mentioned on this board.

1. Increase the useful load to 3600-3800

...

A useful load in that range today comes only with a PC12-sized airplane. 

If you mean gross, the current Mooney wing appears maxed out at 3368 pounds due to certification stall speed limits.  

Mooney probably needs a new wing design to carry any more weight.  

[Browncbr1]

One thing, that hasn't been mentioned much, is a critical factor for me.  I love mooney and all,  but when it became a Chinese company and all intellectual property exported to China, that is a complete non-starter for me.  Once that happened, I don't care what the product is.    I'll never buy into that.   After having done international business for 15 years and seeing that crap happen more and more, it is touchy to me.     I'm sure that many of those buying new planes must consider this as well.  

[ArtVandelay]

Not much Intellectual property on a plane that was designed 60 years ago.

[steingar]

Cirrus is Chinese as well. Were I in the market I'd think seriously about a new Mooney. I don't think you can touch a new pressurized airplane for what new Mooneys sell for. 

[Mcstealth]

23 hours ago, Guitarmaster said:

Agreed. This kind of cash for an unpressurized single is insane.

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My only argument: .......

Cirrus seems to sell enough $800,000 airplanes. 

[gsengle]

Mooneys biggest competition is just as capable used Mooney airframes in the 10-20 year old range. That said the same is true of Cirrus - maybe they don't age as well?


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[neilpilot]

14 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

Do you buy clothes, computer products, electronics, furniture etc?  If so the chances are it has been made in China or at least a large part of it.  Oh and if its a phone, the chip that drives it is defo not made in the US as they are all made up the rosd from where i live, although thats a chinese company as well now.

Andrew, your post is particularly ironic, seeing that Browncbr1 is employed by a group with 5 clothing manufacturing facilities in Shandong!

[Bob_Belville]

18 hours ago, Guitarmaster said:

It's an insane price for any unpressurized single.



Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 

As discussed in an earlier thread, a key factor in the value of new at $750k vs gently used at $250k is the financial advantages of new. Investment tax credits, accelerated depreciation, low cost, extended period financing... a profitable, privately held corporate entity cannot afford not to buy it new.

I suppose most of the decision makers who Mooney needs to be hustling are lunching with their accountants and not looking for the best place to buy tires cheap on MonneySpace.  

[Guitarmaster]

As discussed in an earlier thread, a key factor in the value of new at $750k vs gently used at $250k is the financial advantages of new. Investment tax credits, accelerated depreciation, low cost, extended period financing... a profitable, privately held corporate entity cannot afford not to buy it new.
I suppose most of the decision makers who Mooney needs to be hustling are lunching with their accountants and not looking for the best place to buy tires cheap on MonneySpace.  

Without a doubt! Have a profitable business and you need the tax deduction, I can definitely see this fitting the bill.

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[Danb]

All the tax bennies are available for used aircraft also.

[exM20K]

6 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

A useful load in that range today comes only with a PC12-sized airplane. 

If you mean gross, the current Mooney wing appears maxed out at 3368 pounds due to certification stall speed limits.  

Mooney probably needs a new wing design to carry any more weight.  

My understanding is that it's mostly the landing gear.  Note you can fly a M20TN at 3368 but it must be @  or less than 3200.  Vso is 59KIAS, so there is enough wing to go to 61KIAS (KCAS?) without modification.  Cirrus got their last, and significant, gross weight increase by going to a Vso of 64 KCAS.  this required re-thinking the seats and some other changes.  If Mooney wanted to go down that path, they could get a bunch more pounds of UL - provided the gear could pass a drop test at the high weight..  However, the runway requirements, already kind of high, would be *really* high at MTOW.

Another 2-300 pounds of UL in the new models would probably be worth the development/cert spend, and I hope Mooney has a go at it.

[Browncbr1]

Do you buy clothes, computer products, electronics, furniture etc?  If so the chances are it has been made in China or at least a large part of it.  Oh and if its a phone, the chip that drives it is defo not made in the US as they are all made up the rosd from where i live, although thats a chinese company as well now.

I owned a company for 8 years doing business in china. I'm over it. I don't really buy clothes to be honest. I do when necessary. I've seen first hand what Koreans and Chinese do to American business. My own company name, logo, and intellectual property was stolen in 2013 by Koreans and then again in 2015 by Chinese. Praise Jesus, I just sold out my company, but not before Koreans again tried to steal all my intellectual property earlier this year, then I was able to more or less force a deal with a Chinese supplier in exchange for credit on cost of goods. Now that my hands are washed clean of Asia I am fully committed developing competitive local and regional manufacturing.

One thing needs to be distinguished. I have no problem with equitable global trade and supply chain. I have no problem buying product conceived, designed, developed, and marketed domestically, even if manufactured elsewhere. I have an iPhone and love it... Apple generates lots of commerce and technology, and controls the IP... hell of I will ever buy a huwei, LG, or Samsung phone... that's just me though. I think it can often be a critical mistake when companies source manufacturing overseas, especially when dealing with export of manufacturing technologies and design patents. Such is the case for mooney. When Chinese steal or buy their way into our market, I don't want any part of it. As it is now, ASEAN countries have far too great direct and unfair access to the US market. This is just my humble opinion based on 15 years experience in international business. .

[rpcc]

Yup - build the same product at 1/2 the price - wait till the source country market is destroyed and raise your prices.  

[gsxrpilot]

I'm not worried about the Chinese connection. I've been doing business in Asia for the last 15 years and am happy to continue. 

The thing that worries me is that there just isn't a large enough market for an $850K airplane. If every single person in the US who has a certificate valid to operate this airplane, chipped in $1, we'd still be only half way to buying one. How many people in the US have the disposable income or wealth to spend that kind of money? Then out of that group how many are current pilots? Out of that much smaller group, how many are also wealthy enough to buy a Citation X or any aircraft they like? It seems to me to be a very narrow slice of the population who can qualify, and would be interested. I'm sure there are a few, but those few will be divided between Mooney, Cirrus, Cessna, Lancair, etc, etc, etc.

[peevee]

7 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'm not worried about the Chinese connection. I've been doing business in Asia for the last 15 years and am happy to continue. 

The thing that worries me is that there just isn't a large enough market for an $850K airplane. If every single person in the US who has a certificate valid to operate this airplane, chipped in $1, we'd still be only half way to buying one. How many people in the US have the disposable income or wealth to spend that kind of money? Then out of that group how many are current pilots? Out of that much smaller group, how many are also wealthy enough to buy a Citation X or any aircraft they like? It seems to me to be a very narrow slice of the population who can qualify, and would be interested. I'm sure there are a few, but those few will be divided between Mooney, Cirrus, Cessna, Lancair, etc, etc, etc.

Our savior might just be strong demand in China if they can build a ga community there. Assuming the economy of scale kicks in, which it might not.

[HRM]

3 minutes ago, peevee said:

Our savior might just be strong demand in China...

All I ask is to go down to HF and pick up a couple of wing jacks for $49.99.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

 

I owned a company for 8 years doing business in china. I'm over it. I don't really buy clothes to be honest. I do when necessary. I've seen first hand what Koreans and Chinese do to American business. My own company name, logo, and intellectual property was stolen in 2013 by Koreans and then again in 2015 by Chinese. Praise Jesus, I just sold out my company, but not before Koreans again tried to steal all my intellectual property earlier this year, then I was able to more or less force a deal with a Chinese supplier in exchange for credit on cost of goods. Now that my hands are washed clean of Asia I am fully committed developing competitive local and regional manufacturing.

One thing needs to be distinguished. I have no problem with equitable global trade and supply chain. I have no problem buying product conceived, designed, developed, and marketed domestically, even if manufactured elsewhere. I have an iPhone and love it... Apple generates lots of commerce and technology, and controls the IP... hell of I will ever buy a huwei, LG, or Samsung phone... that's just me though. I think it can often be a critical mistake when companies source manufacturing overseas, especially when dealing with export of manufacturing technologies and design patents. Such is the case for mooney. When Chinese steal or buy their way into our market, I don't want any part of it. As it is now, ASEAN countries have far too great direct and unfair access to the US market. This is just my humble opinion based on 15 years experience in international business. .

 

With all of that said, why is Trump intent on renegotiating NAFTA with Canada and Mexico?  It would appear that more of America's jobs have been moved to Asia in the name of corporate profits, than to Canada where our cost of living and wage scales are very similar.

Clarence

[gsengle]

Demagoguery.


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[Browncbr1]

With all of that said, why is Trump intent on renegotiating NAFTA with Canada and Mexico?  It would appear that more of America's jobs have been moved to Asia in the name of corporate profits, than to Canada where our cost of living and wage scales are very similar.
Clarence

Yea, from my perspective, we've got problems with competitiveness and corporate security from all sides, but china and s. Korea are the two biggest trade problems. When I lived and worked in Canada, we were having the exact same corporate IP issues with s Korea and china. So, I think that whatever goes into nafta should combat our common issues in ASEAN.

[Dream to fly]

Has anyone actually flown a Cirrus?  I flew an SR22 right seat and was not impressed.   If you don't select autopilot it is like controlling a squirrel running from a happy hunter with a shotgun.  It has a lot of new technology and I have looked inside a new Mooney Ovation and both are really up to date.  But a Mooney platform is nice to fly.  Actually it is fun.  Why they are selling for so much I guess it is too make up for lost sales from yester year.  What needs to happen is in my opinion is that the GA community needs to force the hands of the manufacturers and build a good solid platform for a reasonable price like has happened in the auto industry.  They can build luxury planes for the few but build affordable cruisers that perform for the masses.  It can be done but the greedy have to wait for the payout instead of expecting it from sale number one. just my opinion.  (I'm putting on my bullet proof vest now)

[gsengle]

Has anyone actually flown a Cirrus?  I flew an SR22 right seat and was not impressed.   If you don't select autopilot it is like controlling a squirrel running from a happy hunter with a shotgun.  It has a lot of new technology and I have looked inside a new Mooney Ovation and both are really up to date.  But a Mooney platform is nice to fly.  Actually it is fun.  Why they are selling for so much I guess it is too make up for lost sales from yester year.  What needs to happen is in my opinion is that the GA community needs to force the hands of the manufacturers and build a good solid platform for a reasonable price like has happened in the auto industry.  They can build luxury planes for the few but build affordable cruisers that perform for the masses.  It can be done but the greedy have to wait for the payout instead of expecting it from sale number one. just my opinion.  (I'm putting on my bullet proof vest now)

Totally agree don't like the handling characteristics at all. Doesn't trim well either.


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[steingar]

Airplanes are all built by hand.  Part of that is due to certification, a bigger part is just due to the materials used.  I think Vern Rayburn thought he could drive the costs down on his jet through friction stir welding, which works on aluminum and can be automated.  Still didn't work.

This is what cars looked like before economies of scale.  Aircraft will never get there, ever.  Just not enough customers until someone declares war.  Not enough automation.  This is what things look like in cottage industries, and aircraft will stay there forever.  Heck even when war was declared and they were building thousands of these things they were still assembled by hand.

[LANCECASPER]

21 hours ago, steingar said:

Cirrus is Chinese as well. Were I in the market I'd think seriously about a new Mooney. I don't think you can touch a new pressurized airplane for what new Mooneys sell for. 

The fact that Cirrus is selling a lot of airplanes might be the only reason that the Chinese company that owns Mooney has been patient. They see that there is a market for new airplanes, but they need to get a sales and marketing department that knows how to sell these things. I wasn't at Oshkosh this year but last year the huge Cirrus booth was packed all the time. The little Mooney area had a few people there. Build 5 Acclaim Ultras and 5 Ovation Ultras and take them to Sun N' Fun and Oshkosh and show them off in different colors, options, interiors - get some enthusiasm building for your product. Have a speaker scheduled every hour including owners talking about how they use their Mooneys. Start to rebuild the cult following that Mooney had for years.

[peevee]

12 hours ago, Dream to fly said:

Has anyone actually flown a Cirrus?  I flew an SR22 right seat and was not impressed.   If you don't select autopilot it is like controlling a squirrel running from a happy hunter with a shotgun.  It has a lot of new technology and I have looked inside a new Mooney Ovation and both are really up to date.  But a Mooney platform is nice to fly.  Actually it is fun.  Why they are selling for so much I guess it is too make up for lost sales from yester year.  What needs to happen is in my opinion is that the GA community needs to force the hands of the manufacturers and build a good solid platform for a reasonable price like has happened in the auto industry.  They can build luxury planes for the few but build affordable cruisers that perform for the masses.  It can be done but the greedy have to wait for the payout instead of expecting it from sale number one. just my opinion.  (I'm putting on my bullet proof vest now)

They fly fine. 

[PTK]

Between 2001 and May 2014, 147 US-registered Cirrus SR22 aircraft crashed, resulting in 122 fatalities.

Source: NTSB