New owner of M20M N763RC

[LANCECASPER]

We already know that no one was willing to bid $100,000 due to the questionable history. http://www.ebay.com/itm/93-MOONEY-TLS-BRAVO-1700-TT-CHEAP-DEAL-OF-THE-CENTURY-/122537932027?hash=item1c87d474fb:g:j~QAAOSwt5hYf~Q0&vxp=mtr

Now he's trying to get someone to bid $110,000 or higher. http://www.ebay.com/itm/93-MOONEY-TLS-BRAVO-1700-TT-/122557722381?hash=item1c89026f0d:g:j~QAAOSwt5hYf~Q0&vxp=mtr

With the extensive damage history, unproven repairs and shady pricing all over the map the price should be considerably South of $100,000 for it to make sense.

[ragedracer1977]

That paintjob, though.....

[LANCECASPER]

25 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

That paintjob, though.....

The color choices may be nice and may complement the lines of the Mooney, but if you look at the details it looks like a shoddy job. 

Here's an example (notice how the design on the tail is jagged and does not follow a smooth arc like it should):

 

Painting "Bravo" on the wing in a cursive font is just plain tacky. If it was mine, that would be the first thing that came off.

 

[ragedracer1977]

7 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

The color choices may be nice and may complement the lines of the Mooney, but if you look at the details it looks like a shoddy job. 

Here's an example (notice how the design on the tail is jagged and does not follow a smooth arc like it should):

 

Painting "Bravo" on the wing in a cursive font is just plain tacky. If it was mine, that would be the first thing that came off.

 

I know... I was poking fun at another currently running thread about similar (although MUCH higher quality) pair of paint jobs.

[LANCECASPER]

Just now, ragedracer1977 said:

I know... I was poking fun at another currently running thread about similar (although MUCH higher quality) pair of paint jobs.

Haha . .  i get it. He should be sued, subjected to a Mooneyspace tribunal and perhaps even tortured for picking the most common Mooney paint scheme since 2000.

[Hank]

6 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

Haha . .  i get it. He should be sued, subjected to a Mooneyspace tribunal and perhaps even tortured for picking the most common Mooney paint scheme since 2000.

Hey, somebody designed it! He made it his own by running the vertical stab swoosh off the leading edge, and by adding the  maligned "Bravo" on the wing. That last part is just unattractive . . . . The striping mistakes are simply shoddy work, maybe done by apprentices?

[LANCECASPER]

5 minutes ago, Hank said:

Hey, somebody designed it! He made it his own by running the vertical stab swoosh off the leading edge, and by adding the  maligned "Bravo" on the wing. That last part is just unattractive . . . . The striping mistakes are simply shoddy work, maybe done by apprentices?

If someone on here copies the "Bravo" script on their wing they owe this seller a royalty and each of us an apology.

[Hank]

Just now, LANCECASPER said:

If someone on here copies the "Bravo" script on their wing they owe this seller a royalty and each of us an apology.

I'll donate 10% of my royalty receipts to jetdriven for making me aware of this problem.  

[Godfather]

I think all future insurance payouts need to include an extra 30% back to the owner to cover the MS badgering discount...

[peevee]

4 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

What @LANCECASPER said. 

Don Maxwell has to give it a clean recommendation or I'd be running away.

Our plane had hail damage back in the 90s that was repaired poorly. Maxwell went back in about 5 years ago and fixed it right. Having someone knowledgeable does make a difference despite the best intentions.

 

It's sitting outside right now in a light t storm. With my luck it'll get it again.

[Bravoman]

My Bravo was previously owned  by Butch Gilliland, a pretty well known NASCAR driver from out west. His wife's name, Vlada, is tastefully painted on the tail. I kind of like it. Part of the history of the plane.  

[Preptechmilitia]

14 hours ago, peevee said:

Have a lot of reserve money for first year repairs. But that's any plane.

 

Who is going to do your pre purchase inspection?

I hate to go down that road but it's a lot of plane for a new pilot and first time owner.

 

I called don Maxwell and we tried to schedule to pre buy with him and he said we would have to bring it to him. 

Current owner got flustered when I asked to have it taken there. He said I already have someone deposit and then said I aint flying it anywhere I don't want to mess with it and hung up on me. Then called me back and said that Maxwell's sheet metal guys is who did repairs. So I called back and gave N number and they said he was out sick today and would call me back tomorrow. 

Then the current owner text me saying he would take it for pre buy is I paid for travel expenses and hotel stay. I figured it would he 1200 plus pre buy 1450. So I would be 103 plus tax and fees. 

 

I then called Mooney who transferred me to Dave at delta aviation and if I put that kinda money down I can get a 2005 ovation 2gx g1000 plane with a 20 year loan and all glass cockpit.  Man oh man. 

 

I don't think I want to learn on a plane that is so expensive though. Thoughts?  I figure buy a cheaper plane to learn on and trade her in after I have a few hundred hrs. 

I'm gonna steer clear of this bravo. I have money but don't plan on wasting it. 

 

 

[carusoam]

Prep tech,

How many flight hours did you say you have?

Just trying to get a feel for how much training you may have vs. need vs. want to have...

learning to fly in a long body Mooney can be done.  It can also be financially ridiculous.

Have you gotten a quote for insurance yet?  The insurance company is usually the people to rudely  tell you how expensive flying a long body is going to be.

Best regards,

-a-

Edited June 21, 2017 by carusoam

[Preptechmilitia]

12 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Prep tech,

How many flight hours did you say you have?

Just trying to get a feel for how much training you may have vs. need vs. want to have...

learning to fly in a long body Mooney can be done.  It calso be financially ridiculous.

Have you gotten a quote for insurance yet?  The insurance company is usually the people to rudely  tell you how expensive flying a long body is going to be.

Best regards,

-a-

Hahaha. I have no experience yet. But my brother does and I am going to do nothing but learn from here on.

 

We decided to go with a 1979 piper arrow IV t-tail. 

We are gonna learn on that and then get a beautiful mooney once we get our bearings

[Hank]

5 hours ago, Preptechmilitia said:

. . . then get a beautiful mooney once we get our bearings

Sounds like a good plan! Enjoy the experience.

[Alan Fox]

I just love that we can judge a paint job , by a crappy picture....... NOT  ....  Could be a great paint job..... How about somebody actually sees the plane before trashing it....

[BigAl]

On 6/20/2017 at 6:52 PM, LANCECASPER said:

We already know that no one was willing to bid $100,000 due to the questionable history. http://www.ebay.com/itm/93-MOONEY-TLS-BRAVO-1700-TT-CHEAP-DEAL-OF-THE-CENTURY-/122537932027?hash=item1c87d474fb:g:j~QAAOSwt5hYf~Q0&vxp=mtr

Now he's trying to get someone to bid $110,000 or higher. http://www.ebay.com/itm/93-MOONEY-TLS-BRAVO-1700-TT-/122557722381?hash=item1c89026f0d:g:j~QAAOSwt5hYf~Q0&vxp=mtr

With the extensive damage history, unproven repairs and shady pricing all over the map the price should be considerably South of $100,000 for it to make sense.

Someone actually bid...

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=122557722381&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

[peevee]

1 hour ago, Alan Fox said:

I just love that we can judge a paint job , by a crappy picture....... NOT  ....  Could be a great paint job..... How about somebody actually sees the plane before trashing it....

What is it with this place and paint lately.

[Godfather]

12 minutes ago, BigAl said:

Someone actually bid...

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=122557722381&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565

So the sellers pricing strategy does work...little does the buyer know he could of bid 10k less a week or two ago. 

[LANCECASPER]

7 minutes ago, Godfather said:

So the sellers pricing strategy does work...little does the buyer know he could of bid 10k less a week or two ago. 

It's probably the Seller's friend shill bidding. http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/seller-shill-bidding.html

He's had bids before which would have won the auction and then look a week or two later it's back up for sale.

[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, Alan Fox said:

I just love that we can judge a paint job , by a crappy picture....... NOT  ....  Could be a great paint job..... How about somebody actually sees the plane before trashing it....

The pictures are great resolution, makes it easy to see the flaws in the paint job. If the painter is going to take on a complicated paint design, he needs to be able to do it. No way should the one who paid for this have accepted it that way. Cutting corners puts up a red flag for me. If you're going to do something, do it right.

[FBCK]

Its my understanding that the T-Tail is not the easiest plane to fly either, the stabilizer at lower speeds, landing, does not get a lot of wash from the prop because of its location. But keep the speeds up and its not a problem, used to fly an Arrow II, hard to not land that plane well.

[thinwing]

On 6/20/2017 at 9:07 PM, Preptechmilitia said:

Hahaha. I have no experience yet. But my brother does and I am going to do nothing but learn from here on.

 

We decided to go with a 1979 piper arrow IV t-tail. 

We are gonna learn on that and then get a beautiful mooney once we get our bearings

I interpret this to "I actually haven't started flying lessons yet"but my brother flys ultralights" wishful internet thinking...call me curmudgeon,but I think something screwball about bidding on turbocharged high performance aircraft ,when you don't even have a pilots license!

[bonal]

On ‎6‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 3:56 PM, gsxrpilot said:

Over the last year, I've compiled list of 9 MooneySpace members who thought they'd found that great deal that no one else had found. In the end they each spent more getting the plane into airworthy condition than if they'd bought the most expensive, turn-key, example of the type for sale at the time.

I'm sure there are great finds out there, but unless you're name is @KLRDMD or @Alan Fox it's exceedingly unlikely that you'll find one. Kissing frogs is expensive in this game.

Interesting,  I wonder why one would compile such a list and if I'm on it.  I definitely would fit the discription of having spent more to recover what was neglected than had we just bought a better example but i never thought it was a great or bad deal.  In truth (and please take no offence) Had I purchased your C clearly one of the nicest out there it would be a pile of scrap at this time.  PPI only reduces the odds of a bad purchase we all know there is a huge risk when investing in one of these damn airplanes.

ours goes in for annual next month hoping for minimal issues...For once

[gsxrpilot]

26 minutes ago, bonal said:

Interesting,  I wonder why one would compile such a list and if I'm on it.  I definitely would fit the discription of having spent more to recover what was neglected than had we just bought a better example but i never thought it was a great or bad deal.  In truth (and please take no offence) Had I purchased your C clearly one of the nicest out there it would be a pile of scrap at this time.  PPI only reduces the odds of a bad purchase we all know there is a huge risk when investing in one of these damn airplanes.

ours goes in for annual next month hoping for minimal issues...For once

No, you're not on the list. I think you bought your Mooney before I came along  It's also evident that you went into the purchase with full understanding of it's needs and are happy with the airplane you've got as a result. I bought my 252 with an eye to some significant upgrades which would have been cheaper had I just found a plane with them already done, but I knew what I wanted, how much it would cost, and that I could afford it. I didn't buy the 252 thinking I could upgrade it cheaper.

First of all, I'll agree with you that this whole airplane ownership thing is a gamble and the best PPI just reduces that risk. The situation with 6XM is a little different in that while it is on the scrap heap, insurance did pay out on the loss. (The lesson I've taken from 6XM is to put some serious thought and calculation into the "agreed value" of the plane on my insurance policy.) Of course, there was money lost in the deal such as the cost of the recent annual. My 252 is maybe a better example in that the PPI didn't find, nor would any PPI have found, the spar cap corrosion under sealant in the tank. That could have condemned the whole airplane. And insurance wouldn't have covered it. So you are correct that this whole game is a crap shoot and not for the faint of heart or light of wallet.

The list is just so I don't have to go searching back through MooneySpace posts when I'm looking for an example of a buyer who though they got a great deal only to find out it wasn't. Everything on my list was publicly posted by the buyers themselves. And I'm not posting the list here anytime soon.

I also think there's a difference between buying a Mooney with full knowledge that it's going to need work or upgrading, taking the time and spending the money to do it, and buying a cheap Mooney thinking that you've found that one amazing deal that no one else saw. I still maintain that the most cost effective way to buy and own a vintage Mooney is to...
1) find one that's been upgraded properly (always much cheaper to let the previous owner do the upgrading, either panel, speed mods, interior, paint, etc)
2) should be regularly flown (not a hangar queen) 
3) get a PPI from a Mooney shop like a well known MSC (not the same shade tree A&P who's pencil whipped the last several annuals)

I've noticed that often if you find #2, #1 is there as well. I also find that often if the seller balks at #3, there is a reason, and you probably don't want to own that Mooney.