M20C Sat in Hangar for 10 years - Buy or Pass?

[kortopates]

26 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Have you ever performed the SB? I have been through 3 of them.  The fiberglass is never a blanket, It's typically a mess that has long since ceased to do anything other than collect in a moisture absorbing mass over the lower tubes. Some of it may be "dry-able" but I can't imagine anyone why anyone would ever reinstall that stuff.    

Of course, as an A&P I do all my own work and had the lower sidewall interior out very recently when I replaced all 4 of my seat rails; which gave me a good opportunity to look over the lower tubing.  I do so every time I have interior sections out. But I still have some fiberglass blanket material on my right side that is still in pristine condition. Every time I have it opened up I consider replacing it but so far since its still pristine I haven't; instead I replaced all floor based sound/vibration/temp alum covered insulation which is pretty expensive stuff to get in the good super light material. I am getting off topic but I don't think shops are not going to be as thorough in complying with these things as much as an owner-mechanic/maintainer is that is going to take the long view; particularly when you get to elective options of replacing serviceable insulation. Kudos to you for being through; but I expect you'll still find a lot of fiberglass insulation including stuff that hasn't been pristine for some time out in the fleet despite previous SB compliance.  

Edited February 3, 2016 by kortopates

[Yetti]

Is there not a bunch up front by the pedals behind the zippered cloth thingys? 

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, kortopates said:

 Kudos to you for being through; but I expect you'll still find a lot of fiberglass insulation including stuff that hasn't been pristine for some time out in the fleet despite previous SB compliance.  

I agree completely. The reason I feel strongly about it is this.  My Father bought our bird basically new in 68. It was a dealer demo plane and basically brand new (<100hrs IIRC).  Over the years, he was told repeatedly by his mx that since the bird had always lived in a hangar, that it would be fine.  When I opened it up in 06 or 07, there was blue stained mass of fiberglass with rodent poo and urine stains. The beginnings of surface corrosion were obvious on the tubes. The interior was masked the tubes were cleaned, the whole area was flushed and remasked. The tubes were then painted with a 2 part zinc chromate epoxy followed by a beige finish coat.  I guess I just assumed that anyone doing the job would want to minimize the chances of rust returning. My plane is a good deal older than me, and I expect the airframe will outlast me barring any tragic events.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Shadrach

[Guest]

On February 2, 2016 at 8:44 AM, glafaille said:

Carusoam-

I am a 59 year old professional pilot so not new to aviation.  I am new to aircraft ownership, this will be my first and probably only aircraft purchase.  My son is out of college, it's just my wife and I, so we have some spare change.  We live in a small town and want to do some traveling together as well as visit my son who lives on the East Coast and other family living in Denver and California.  My job allows me a bit extra time off for travel, but no free airline passes.

I am not a mechanic but am familiar with maintenance of corporate jets, which is part of my problem.  I expect "corporate jet" record keeping with 50 year old Mooneys.  Not going to find it!

My total experience with flying Mooneys is a 10 minute re-position of a 201 for a friend who needed his plane moved to an avionics shop.  Seemed to fly nice.  I think my biggest problem learning to fly a Mooney will be in flying 80 mph on final, anything less than 130 knots makes me nervous!  I'll keep to LONG runways for a while!

I didn't start at the lowest price, I sort of ended up at Walmart because I couldn't find what I wanted at Macy's.  Nothing out there that met my requirements in my upper price range so I'm looking elsewhere, digging through the "bargain bin". You never know!

 

If you think the lower speed on final will be tough, just wait until you feel like your butt will scrape the runway.

Clarence

[glafaille]

7 hours ago, jetdriven said:

That wingtip damage is not minor. That's a balanced control surface that's bent up along with the end rib. The aileron is around 3700$ new and by the time ifs all replaced and painted it's probably a 5 grand repair. 

 

Jetdriven:

Thanks for your observation.  You may be right, but after looking at the wingtip in person it appears to be resticted to the tip plate and not to the wing structure and only very slightly to the aileron.  I am a little concerned about it, but I think it is still worth pursuing the sale and finding out what Don Maxwell thinks about it.  I have alerted the seller that it may be a problem.

[glafaille]

Concerning my second choice (Barnstormer Ad);

I found out today, after driving 6 hours each way this weekend to see the plane, while offering to buy at his asking price, that the seller is not willing to repair any squawks whatsoever, airworthiness or otherwise.  Either now or after the pre-buy.  Strictly as-is, where-is.  He said he recently dropped the price and now there is no room to fix anything.

Wish I knew that before blowing a weekend and the gas and hotel.  Oh well, part of the game!

Guess I'm still looking for a plane.

[DXB]

On February 2, 2016 at 1:32 PM, glafaille said:

Wierd.  I'm curious on the detailed history and thinking of the shop here- but agree on its face it looks bad.  

That plane at Airmods looks nice, and it's a good shop, but it lags far behind in the avionics department.

Of course you're under no obligation from Mooneyspace to buy either of these suggestions 

[bonal]

Have you looked at the Lake Aero Styling web site they have a few that fit your requirements 

[glafaille]

Bonal:

 

Yes, I have.  And sent several emails to two of the sellers.  No response.  I think the ads are old, they haven't changed in a couple of months.

[carusoam]

Lasar is an interesting place where people post their Mooneys for sale.  Each plane may still be represented by their individual owners.  

The ones that say they are in Lakeport are probably at LASAR.

Kind of like listing a plane on MAPA.  A good source of information.  But, Not a lot of pre-screening going on there.

Best regards,

-a-

[rbridges]

25 minutes ago, glafaille said:

Bonal:

 

Yes, I have.  And sent several emails to two of the sellers.  No response.  I think the ads are old, they haven't changed in a couple of months.

Hang in there. I looked at several planes and actually ended up buying a C model when it wasn't really what I originally had in mind. My point being that the right plane may come along when you're not expecting it.  Don't settle for a headache plane just because it's available now. 

[Guest]

On February 2, 2016 at 1:32 PM, glafaille said:

If the balance of the plane has the things you want, I would be asking about the engine and prop strike.  Suppose that the owner forgot his tow bar on the nose gear and damaged the tips of the prop. Quite a different scenario for the crank versus a gear up landing.

Clarence

[glafaille]

Doc:

I admit I am relying on the broker's description that the aircraft was landed "gear up".  There is no entry in the logs supplied to me that indicates a ger up landing.  Furthermore, there is no record of an incident or accident on the FAA website.  I will try to confirm exactly what happened.

[N601RX]

Many years ago it was common to dial the crank, replace the bolt/dowel and go fly.  Now most elect for a full tear down as the insurance will pay for it. 

Here are a few reasons some don't do the full tear down 

Owner has no insurance and wants it back flying as cheaply as possible.

Owner doesn't want to risk having to come up with any extra money to cover what is not covered by insurance on full tear down inspection.

The plane is totaled and sold as salvage.  Junk dealer buys it and gets it back in air as cheaply as possible to maximize profit.

[M20F]

16 minutes ago, glafaille said:

Doc:

I admit I am relying on the broker's description that the aircraft was landed "gear up".  There is no entry in the logs supplied to me that indicates a ger up landing.  Furthermore, there is no record of an incident or accident on the FAA website.  I will try to confirm exactly what happened.

I would call the repair shop and ask for a copy/details on W/O 24677.

[jetdriven]

4 hours ago, glafaille said:

 

Jetdriven:

Thanks for your observation.  You may be right, but after looking at the wingtip in person it appears to be resticted to the tip plate and not to the wing structure and only very slightly to the aileron.  I am a little concerned about it, but I think it is still worth pursuing the sale and finding out what Don Maxwell thinks about it.  I have alerted the seller that it may be a problem.

The aileron is clearly bent.  And so is the end rib. You call it a tip plate but the parts catalog calls it a rib..its structural and shouldn't be flying.  Ask the factory what the allowable limits are for bends and wrinkling on that rib. 

[carusoam]

Byron does a nice job of explaining what's required from experience.

I can only add the following from my PP experience.  Fortunately, those parts are available with the plant being back in business.  But make no assumptions prior to ownership. Even small parts can be terribly expensive and take a terribly long time if they need to be manufactured.

there is a similar thread here that chronicals a person that bought a Mooney with minor hangar rash as we are discussing in this thread.  The plane flew adequately with all the dents and creases.

Find the thread that is essentially titled 'F- the FAA. ' The FAA was cruising through the tie-down areas and came upon the hangar rash on the plane and then the issues began to unfold.  Many of us were surprised regarding the detail that is involved.

There doesn't seem to be an acceptable amount of hangar rash that is available on Mooneys.  That would have to come from the maintenance manuals or documents like that. As Byron had done.

It's only sheet metal and ribs that are not terribly challenging to get replaced.  Just don't buy it thinking it isn't a problem.  Buy it after you know it isn't a problem for you.

My thoughts,

-a-

[glafaille]

Jet-

 

Thanks again.  I'm sure you are right, might explain the offset rudder trim tab.  Doen't matter now though, the deal is off as the seller refuses to fix anyrhing at all.  It's an "as is" sale.  I'm not brave enough to tackle the deal under those terms.

Back to shopping for a plane!

[animalmover]

glafaille

I do travel quite a bit for work ( not always home ) but if you find something in the " neighborhood " let me know.  I'm in Marshall and usually looking for a reason to fly.

Edited February 4, 2016 by animalmover

[Mooneymite]

On 2/2/2016 at 10:51 AM, glafaille said:

The owner does not want the plane to leave Lubbock for inspection. Please advise your intentions at this point, thank you.
 

I can see both sides of this issue.  I have seen absolute horror stories about sellers' airplanes being flown out for pre-buys.

If/when I sell my Mooney, I would be very tempted to restrict fly-outs.

A prospective buyer would be encouraged to bring any A&P/IA he chooses to the airplane to perform the pre-buy, but mmmmmmmm...based on what I've seen happen, probably no fly-outs.

I don't  see this as unreasonable as long as a thorough pre-buy is permitted "in situ".

As a buyer, this may seem like a red flag, but to me it is just a wise seller.  The solution is to bring your trusted mechanic to the plane.

 

Edited February 4, 2016 by Mooneymite

[Marauder]

Ok, plan B.

There is one big risk in meeting Jimmy or David... you're likely to get home and find out you bought a J or K and spent twice your budget.

Don't you think an alcoholic has the same concern when he walks into a liquor store?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Marauder]

On 2/2/2016 at 10:51 AM, glafaille said:
The owner does not want the plane to leave Lubbock for inspection. Please advise your intentions at this point, thank you.
 

I can see both sides of this issue.  I have seen absolute horror stories about sellers' airplanes being flown out for pre-buys.

If/when I sell my Mooney, I would be very tempted to restrict fly-outs.

A prospective buyer would be encouraged to bring any A&P/IA he chooses to the airplane to perform the pre-buy, but mmmmmmmm...based on what I've seen happen, probably no fly-outs.

I don't  see this as unreasonable as long as a thorough pre-buy is permitted "in situ".

As a buyer, this may seem like a red flag, but to me it is just a wise seller.  The solution is to bring your trusted mechanic to the plane.

 

And there is the story about the guy who brought a Mooney to his favorite mechanic for a pre-buy (despite the advice from this Mooney owner) and ended up buying a plane he scrapped 2 months later. The Boogie man got it.

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[glafaille]

As the cost of a pre-buy increases, the condition of the aircraft and records must increase, or the asking price of the aircraft must decrease.

Example:  If I find a suitable aircraft in Don Maxwell's hangar, I can afford to spend top dollar for it as it's sitting right there, and easily inspected.  Problem aircraft are easily identified and easily ruled out. My only cost is Don's time.

But if the aircraft is located 300 miles away in a small town far away from any airline service, or an interstate highway, like most Mooneys seem to be, then the expense of a pre-buy escalates rapidly, even more if the airplane can't be moved to the Service Center.  Mechanics must be shipped in and their travel time and expenses compensated.  A $1000 prebuy can easily turn into a $3000 or $4000 pre buy.  Plus a busy shop like Maxwell's may not be able to turn loose of a mechanic for a two or three day trip.

So the aircraft and records MUST be in pristine condition and the price VERY reasonable for the seller to gamble $3000 to $4000 on a long distance pre buy.  Frankly, I have not yet examined a single aircraft that I would consider worthy of taking the gamble.

It also says something to me about the sellers confidence in his aircraft's condition and maintenance history if he will not allow inspection by a Mooney Service center.  

We are talking about airworthiness squawks here, right?  Why would anyone want to fly an aircraft that wasn't airworthy?

If I lived in a small town without easy access, and wanted to sell my aircraft, the very FIRST thing I would do is take it to a MSC for an annual to help give the seller a warm fuzzy feeling, and get top dollar for the aircraft.

 

[merrja]

I just spent ~40K on my engine that had sat for a few years with only a few hours flown per year.  Engine TT was about 300 hours when I purchased and I flew about 250 hours before it (camshaft we think)  started making metal.  The only thing that they were able to reuse from the entire engine was my crankshaft.  My advice is very frequent oil changes and watch it like a hawk.   Best of luck!

[glafaille]

Merrja-

I'm sorry to hear of your engine problems and I'm glad you and the airplane were not hurt.  

Would you mind telling me which Mooney you have and whether or not you had a pre-buy performed when you bought it.  Did you have them look at the cam as part of the pre buy?  I'm betting you don't have a C model, by the price of the engine.