Mooney flight

[slvrbck]

Hey folks, been lurking on this sight since I've been debating getting back into GA.  I've owned a kit fox and c182 in the past but have never flown a Mooney or Bonanza.  Looking at purchasing a Mooney Bravo or F33A/A36.  I've been doing a ton of research on both brands and don't think I can go wrong either way if I find the right airplane.  However, having said all that I think I should at least sit in one and preferably fly one before such a large purchase!
Anybody in the KBTV (Burlington, Vermont) area willing or able?  Gas and lunch on me.
v/r
Bob

PS I posted this on Beech-talk also, hence the Bonanza reference.  

v/r

Bob

[Andy95W]

Your wife will enjoy the cabin-class feel and comfort of the A36.

You will enjoy flying the Bravo into the Flight Levels.

You will enjoy how the Bonanzas fly- but it's not a Mooney.

[PMcClure]

I have had both. Your money goes a lot longer and faster with a Mooney. 

[Nemesis]

In addition to all of the above, they are very different airframes. It might work out better for you if you first determine what your average mission would look like. If you need to carry more people and / or weight, then the Bo might be your best choice. If you will most likely be by yourself or carry only 1 passenger plus bags, then the Mooney could be the better move. How do distance, speed, and altitude capabilities fit into the picture? Define your mission first then start looking for the most compatible airframe.

Dave

[Oldguy]

1 hour ago, Nemesis said:

In addition to all of the above, they are very different airframes. It might work out better for you if you first determine what your average mission would look like. If you need to carry more people and / or weight, then the Bo might be your best choice. If you will most likely be by yourself or carry only 1 passenger plus bags, then the Mooney could be the better move. How do distance, speed, and altitude capabilities fit into the picture. Define your mission first then start looking for the most compatible airframe.

Dave

Dave has it right on the money. I bought my J from a guy who had it and a Bonanza. With a need to carry 4+ at times, the J just was not it and after having it sit for the better part of a year, he put it up for sale. Since then I have corresponded with him semi-regularly and he has filled up the Bonanza several times for cross-country trips of 6+ hours. He's happier not having a Mooney sit in his hangar and I am too. For me it is usually 2 or 3 people with light luggage for flights between 2-4 hours or maybe just a run to the beach an 1 1/2 away with my wife for lunch. Once you define the mission you will fly the majority of the time, the solution will probably be obvious.

John

[slvrbck]

Thanks for all the replies.  I've spent a lot of time defining my "mission" and it's best served by a 182.  I've had one of those, loved it, ready to try something new.  Both the Mooney and the Bonanza will fit the mission.  I recognize each airframe has a certain "niche" it better fills.  I would be happy with the right airframe in either category however I want to make sure that I fit,( I'm pretty standard size ) and that it's comfortable.  I flew a Citabria for the first time and really did not like how it felt to me.  Very cramped and awkward (chute on in winter).  

v/r

Bob

[Oldguy]

Bob, fit should not be a big issue for a standard size person. There are several of us on here who are larger than the average bear (I'm 6'5" and 215#) and still fit comfortably in our respective planes. The Bravo you are considering will have a bit more space than my J.

Best of luck.

John

[Fipdublin]

Bob,

Get ride in both. That's what made up my mind. The Mooney felt better to me. Unfortunately I'm a long way from VT.

[Shadrach]

You came to the right place! We are biased here, but nothing like the stuff (to put it nicely) I see on Beechtalk. I like both products. The A36 is a wonderful airplane, but unless turbo normalized, most are not much faster than a 201. I have Little experience in the A36 and none recent, but I recall it being a 165kt airplane. I loved being able to put my mountain bike in the rear cabin (6 plc club configuration with a seat removed) with ample room for 2 rear passengers. Nice control harmony, easy to fly. My experience with Bravo owners is that their fuel burn is all over the place. I had a hangar neighber that operated one and they would cruise in the mid teens at 195kts, 27" and 26gph, which seemed lousy to me. I believe these guys had a host of issues. I would urge you to share whatever experience as I've think there's some inconsistency in how the turbos are operated.  Please post your experience  so that others may comment.

[DonMuncy]

18 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

You came to the right place! We are biased here, but nothing like the stuff (to put it nicely) I see on Beechtalk. 

Strangely enough I was over on the Beech list a day or two ago. Some guy was saying he was about to sell his Mooney and looking at Bos. A surprising number of them said "considering your mission you probably ought to stay with your Mooney". 

[Bravoman]

I love my Bravo which I have now had for 2 years. But as have said before it IMO is a two persons and bags plane. With the back seats folded down there is ample room for luggage and stuff. Tough to beat for long cross country trips, get up high and it is fast as heck. I have flown with 3 folks aboard but I think it is tight, particularly for a long trip. We have a fixed gear toga too so perhaps I am jaded because that plane is a real SUV and we typically use it when it is more than the wife and me.

I typically cruise at 29/34 which yields about 75% power and 17.5 gal per hr. Keeps the CHTs nicely below 400*. 

Good luck with your decision. Regards, Frank

[BillC]

Bob,

I would be happy to give you a ride in my Ovation. Basically same airplane, but without turbo. Unfortunately I'm in Florida for the winter but I spend the summers in Maine so a trip to BTV is a short one for me. If you haven't moved on a Bravo by then let me know.

Bill

[Danb]

Bob there's a great Mooney Master CFI in Rutland who may be able to help you in your quest. Ted C. His contact info. Is in the Mooney flyer in the back which lists Mooney cfi's 

[slvrbck]

Gent's 

Thanks so much for all the offers and advice!  I am going to sit in a Eagle2 tomorrow.  As far as I know the long bodies are all the same vs bravo, acclaim,ovation,eagle.  If I am wrong please, please please let me know.  I've been wrong so much in my life it really doesn't bother me:)

As I posted on BT I flew a A36 the other day and loved it!  Great airplane.  Now I need to fly a Bravo to compare.  I recognize that they are both great airplanes and fill different missions.  At the risk of boring people I will explain my mission and would love any advice.  So here goes......

I am an airline pilot based at JFK.  I recently retired from the Air Guard (F-16) and am divorced with 50% custody of 3 beautiful girls.  I am not willing to to move from the BTV area as I really like the school system and want the girls to grow up in Vermont.  My life is very good with the exception of the commute to JFK.  I generally jumpseat down on JetBlue (shout out to JB folks as you guys rock and have treated me so well).  However, it still sucks waiting on flights, hanging around airports, and begging rides, any airline commuters can relate!  So I got to thinking .....How can I make this commute easier?  I'm a general aviation fan as I used to own a kit fox and 182.  Trying top see if commuting to FRG (republic) in a Bravo/A36 would work.  I KNOW it will not save money.  That is not my goal.  My goal is to reduce stress and perhaps enjoy going to work.  Looking at Bravo for ability to get up and out of ice (TKS a plus).  Looking at A36 for ability to do the commute 80% of time (bravo 90%) but still be able to load kids and go to Florida on break.

 

Hope this is not to much information but is where I'm at.  Anybody has any other ideas I would love to hear them.  Thanks again for listening and love the amount of expertise on this site and BT.

Cheers

Bob

[carqwik]

You'll need a back up plan before every flight in your new-to-you GA bird if it's critical you get to JFK on time.  Not suggesting that either the Bo or Mooney are unreliable overall....but everyone will tell you of the time(s) when something just doesn't work right and you have to cancel a flight.  Not often, but it does occur and it's generally unexpected since a prior flight showed no symptoms of impending failure.  In about 30 years of flying, I've recall maybe a handful of flights cancelled due to unexpected MX...one turbo wastegate failure, one gear issue (only got partial retraction), one mag failure, one starter failure, and once for a clogged injector.  Then you have flights where something fails enroute and you might have to land (especially IFR) such as alternator failure (Bravo has two thankfully), vacuum failure, AI failure, etc.  And if you have a single battery (like the Bo), you might come out to find a dead battery....

Then there's wx issues...which in New England is well, you know...just cause a turbine can transit through, it might not be advisable for a single piston even with FIKI.  And no radar either.

Not trying to rain on your future bride but...

In terms of planes, both are great!  The Mooney feels like a Porsche, the Bo like a Cadillac...

[slvrbck]

Carqwik, thank you for the validation of issues I have been debating with myself!  Seriously, those are my exact same thoughts.  I've been debating these issues for a while now.  Have talked to chief pilots and got their "thoughts".  I take those with a grain of salt as chief pilots change and what they tell you is sometimes different than what they tell their bosses.

Wx is a factor.  Even if I get a FIKI Bravo, I know.  However, with todays ability to forecast and have inflight xm and adbs and such ....it gives more flexibility.  The need to be there, for the job, trumps the need to be home.  What I mean by that is if I'm going to work, I make a go-no -go decision when i still have the JB option.  Coming home I just get hotel if I need to.  With 52 weeks in a year if I can fly half of those then that is half my stress reduced.  For those times when shit just happens, well I hope it's not often but I will compare it to cars breaking down and things beyond my control.  If I can show good back ups and doesn't happen very often then I think I can defend that,

Again, thanks for the thoughts and we are on the same page.

v/r

Bob

 

[Bob - S50]

Since you have 3 girls and want to load up and head to Florida, you might also look at a Cessna T210.  That will most likely give you more useful load than the Mooney and fewer CG issues than the Beech.  I think quite a few come with boots for icing too.  You can probably get a 1300 pound useful load.  Price will probably be under $200K.  From the research I've done, I suspect you will want an L or M model.

Best of luck,

Bob

[carusoam]

Checking the boxes...

1) Long Body, Yes. Filling four seats with full sized adults and 1000+ UL is good.

2) FIKI, yes. Because you are a pro and intend to use it year round on a schedule.  Not perfect for all weather, but as close as one can get.

3) Turbo/east Coast, only if you want to.  I prefer the 310hp NA IO550 over other choices.  Short T/O distances for Mooney standards, Clean burning LOP at altitudes, easy climb above JFK's Class B.  I have not yet been a big fan of O2 systems.  O2 monitoring of the whole crew could be a challenge with my crew...I would need another JPI for that.

4) Really, my dream plane would be a 310HP Acclaim with a fully modernized panel.  I could get used to O2.

I'm new to the Mooney scene. I only started flying one in Y2K. I won't be graduating to the Acclaim level for a few more years...

Best regards,

-a-

[Flymu2]

Until recently I was based at FRG.

Regardless of the airplane, going into FRG from the north you will always get the Pawling 2 arrival, putting you at 6000 over LOVES, 2000 over BDR. Those are hard single altitudes. When there is icing you will be in it no matter what. It also wreaks havoc with trip time and fuel planning.

Also, fog can be a problem at FRG. The approach lighting is limited. Lots of guys get in saying the weather was "at minimums", with a wink and a nod.

Another consideration. It's not an easy drive from FRG to JFK, especially during rush hour.

It might be just as stressful flying GA to FRG and driving as taking Jet Blue, except maybe when the weather is decent.

I'm not sure I'd want to depend on GA for a regular commute like that.

[Parker_Woodruff]

General Aviation still sounds like a good option for the half of the year that ice isn't a factor or when the ice is light. 

No piston single should be flying in heavy ice.

I think a Bravo will fit your mission nicely, though it is a thirsty airplane.

i would probably be more inclined to a FIKI M20K 252/Encore for such a trip, but only because of efficiency and ownership costs. Probably in the order of 60% cost per hour to fly an M20K instead of an M20M. If that doesn't bother you, then by all means, get the M20M!

I used to commute to my insurance job by M20J and kept my old Ford pickup at the weekend airport and my good truck for my weekday job. 9 gallons. Take your pick. Burn them flying 1 hour by Mooney or driving 3.5 hours in a pickup.

[WardHolbrook]

Take it from a guy who's owned several airplanes and has been married to the same woman for almost 44 years...

Take a hard look at what your mission will be. Thoroughly examine every aspect of each aircraft's performance and comfort features factoring in equipment and airframe/engine times. Then once you've dissected every last detail and analyzed every possible question and performed several thousand (at least) "what if's" then and only then will you be safe in choosing what ever airplane your wife likes best. (Hopefully, it will be either a Bonanza or a Mooney.) 

[Mcstealth]

Did I miss how old the young ones are? I guess that would be a large determining factor. 

Divorce drecrees can have a no GA clause. I assume that is not an issue?

All girls. I bet it would be few and far between the number of times you get all three in the plane at the same time.

If you have speed brakes, long range tanks, and FIKI, you do not have 1000 lbs UL in a Bravo (nor a 252 or Encore, Ovation 1-3, and Acclaim)

The girls most likely will like brand B if all three are present all the time, as the perception and reality of cubic space makes the decision for you. Never show them brand B and you don't fight that problem 

You will like both brands as you seem the type that appreciates what is good about the design.

Random thoughts by David

 

[rocketman]

Don't forget to compare the missions of a turbo (in a Bravo) vs non turbo or turbo normalized in a Bo. Different missions, Different Purposes. For me, I like the Turbo M20M and Rocket like other people like the Z06 Corvettes. Their faster and more complex. But unlike a car where the speed limit is the same for every make, style, and brand, airplanes are different. Plus, unlike cars again where the weather is the same for everyone on the same highway, airway weather in flight is completely different at different altitudes. I like the options of choosing.

Sorry for digressing off the subject a bit.

 

[slvrbck]

folks, replied on the modern mooney thread "mooney bravo"  Just following up as I got a lot of good advice with this thread!  

Apologies for being absent but have been in ground school for my new airplane with the airlines.  On breaks I still love following GA.

I have signed a pre purchase agreement on an A36.  Still love the mooneys but kids, girlfriends and dogs leaned in favor of the beech.  

I will continue to lurk and maybe when kids are out of the house go to a mooney!  Again thanks for all the input.  It's been great.

v/r Bob

[Mcstealth]

congratulations and good luck.

DF