Midair at KSDM

[PTK]

This one was a real doozy!

It must have been a pretty violent one when they don't know how many died.

I've read 2-5 with everything in between.

RIP. Prayers for the families.

[Bob_Belville]

Sabreliner and 172. Apparently both "approaching to land" Brown Field. 

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Reports-of-Plane-Down-Otay-Lakes-Road-Officials-321995182.html

[bonal]

Class D were they being controlled? Very sad news

[gsengle]

We will see, the field is towered. What do you all think about business jets all too often skipping any sort of pattern and making straight ins to uncontrolled fields? Seems to be the norm around here and creates collision risk...

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[Piloto]

It is puzzling when the two planes were under ATC control. This kind of event can happens when you least expect it. Be on the look out and listen to the radio. It also helps some form of traffic detection. My sympathies to the families waiting at the airport.

 

José

[bonal]

Yesterday as we approached LVK we checked in as usual and just a handful of second before entering the DW as directed I heard a Cessna cleared for the departure with a downwind clearance and I though how is that going to work as I was given number 2 behind the Cessna. I contacted CT to confirm and they quickly changed and had me number 1

[peevee]

It is puzzling when the two planes were under ATC control. This kind of event can happens when you least expect it. Be on the look out and listen to the radio. It also helps some form of traffic detection. My sympathies to the families waiting at the airport.

 

José

The only time a vfr tower is responsible to keep you separated is while on their concrete.

[aviatoreb]

The only time a vfr tower is responsible to keep you separated is while on their concrete.

 

I thought air traffic control's entire job purpose is separation, including tower terminal area control.  That said, it is ALSO still the pilots responsibility to stay separated when vmc.

[peevee]

I thought air traffic control's entire job purpose is separation, including tower terminal area control. That said, it is ALSO still the pilots responsibility to stay separated when vmc.

Vfr towers have very limited equipment. They'll give you traffic advisories and sequence you but in the air separation services are not provided. Only on the concrete. You are always responsible to see and avoid, class d usually affords little to no additional protection.

[PTK]

The airport is unattended on weekends.

[fantom]

What do you all think about business jets all too often skipping any sort of pattern and making straight ins to uncontrolled fields? Seems to be the norm around here and creates collision risk...

 

 

Given that most of those jets drop like rocks as they slow up, traffic patterns aren't very practical, but it's no justification for charging into the area as many of them do. Pilots eyes for both planes outside, not on those panel gizmos! Lots of details yet to come.

 

RIP

[gsengle]

Contract or FAA tower? Why closed on weekends?

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[kortopates]

The tower is open every day (8am-8pm). Its not that busy of an airport compared to our other San Diego county airports but has a lot going on between aircraft coming over the border from TJ (a mile away) to clear customs, parachute jumping, military (Nat Guard) including F/A-18's and more and the usual GA training. Its also home to a lot of experimental aircraft and a local EAA chapter 14. It gets additional traffic from aircraft owners for usually having the best fuel prices in the county too. The C172 in the midair was associated with a local flying club I instruct with - perhaps the biggest club in the nation. The C172 pilot was alone, so far from what we've heard. Still very little is known, but a friend of mine that observed it while fueling up there said the C172 was coming in on a right base for 26R, the same long runway that the Sabreliner would also be coming in on. She saw the collision and said it was just awful.

The FAA hasn't even upload there daily accident/incident stats from the weekend yet. But I am sure we'll hear more details soon. 

[peevee]

Contract or FAA tower? Why closed on weekends?

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Brown is not FAA.

[DXB]

This is awful.  I definitely feel less vulnerable when at my class D home field vs. the non-towered world, perhaps because it sure feels like they are providing separation services.  They provide radar service and make spacing calls constantly at busy times.  It wasn't until well into my PPL training at this field that I learned they were technically not required to do so.  Operationally, talking to the tower feels minimally different from a class C, excepting no separate departure controller. This may give a false sense of security.  How much variability do the experienced people on here find in talking to different class D towers and how do they behave differently in class D vs. class C airspace?  

[xrs135]

The only time a vfr tower is responsible to keep you separated is while on their concrete.

Yes. However let's not forget...

[M20F]

Yes. However let's not forget...

I don't think anyone disputes that but controllers make mistakes, planes turn where they shouldn't, etc. Whenever you are around a lot of other planes is the time to be looking out the window the most even in beloved Class B where everyone is separated.

[peevee]

Yes. However let's not forget...ImageUploadedByTapatalk1439849461.964965.jpg

It says collision, not mid air collision. They provide additional services sure, but in the end that's all they're responsible for.

[Shadrach]

Yes. However let's not forget...ImageUploadedByTapatalk1439849461.964965.jpg

Many Class Delta towers have nothing in the way of radar or a radar feed. They're looking out their window, not at a radar scope. They put a tower in at KFDK near my house and I feel less safe there since. Instead of pilots working together to keep the flow moving with proper spacing, that task has been given to a simgle person with no radar, sitting in a tinted glass room 20' off the ground...

[Bob_Belville]

I have recently added a step to my landing procedure. I flip the GTN750 to traffic mode and zoom in close as I near the airport. One more set of eyes.

 

I was coming in from PDK last week as a Lear was approaching our uncontrolled field from the east to make (non standard) right traffic to Rwy 3. I stayed to the west of the field, extended my downwind and tried to get a visual on my speedy friend. He beat me in, I never saw him. He did broadcast his presence and intentions from 15 out. He did no followup.    

[gsengle]

Doesn't traffic overlay your map? I'm watching traffic at every airport as I build that mental picture...

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[Bob_Belville]

Doesn't traffic overlay your map? I'm watching traffic at every airport as I build that mental picture...

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Yup, but there is more info including closing rate and target airspeed on the traffic screen. And all the non traffic clutter is gone leaving a high contrast display. Try it if you have the GLD88 and GTN750 or similar.

[carl]

i was doing pattern work ,took off on 21 reported a left crosswind for 21 . a citation jet called in on a 8 mile final for runway 3 .

i told him im turning

onto left downwind and will extend until you are clear .

he replied.

he then landed and reported clear of the runway and thanked me.

i did not even extend past my regular long downwind.

he was just that quick.

but talking to traffic i think helps

[Bob_Belville]

i was doing pattern work ,took off on 21 reported a left crosswind for 21 . a citation jet called in on a 8 mile final for runway 3 .

i told him im turning

onto left downwind and will extend until you are clear .

he replied.

he then landed and reported clear of the runway and thanked me.

i did not even extend past my regular long downwind.

he was just that quick.

but talking to traffic i think helps

Yeah, I report my position and intentions to extend but he did not respond to my request for an update on his position.

[jetdriven]

Many Class Delta towers have nothing in the way of radar or a radar feed. They're looking out their window, not at a radar scope. They put a tower in at KFDK near my house and I feel less safe there. Instead of pilots working together to keep the flow moving while maintaining spacing, that task has been given to a person on the ground sitting in a tinted glass room 20' off the ground...

FDK iirc had a midair collision with a cirrus and a helicopter about a year ago as well.