Collapsed Nose Gear

[chrisk]

I was recently looking at some on line adds for Mooneys (long bodies) and I saw several that mentions a "Collapsed Nose Gear".   How does this happen?  Is this because they have the dented truss from a bad lineman and the gear is weak?  Or is it because of bad landing habits resulting in a porpoise  (ending in a nose collapse)?  Or hitting a pot hole at 60kts?  Or is there some thing else going on?

[goterminal120]

I was wondering that same thing. It seemed to be happening in the big engine models.

[Jeff_S]

Well, it could be any or all of the above. As one who recently transitioned to a long body, I can attest that you have to pay much more attention to caressing the nose down to earth than with a J. If you relax back pressure or try to plant the nose it WILL bounce on you...there's a lot of extra force with that increased engine weight.

 

As memory serves, there was also an issue with some nose gear where a bushing could get loose and cause a runaway on takeoff or landing. I don't remember whether this was only on the long-bodies or across all the models. Not sure if this is also contributing to what you see in the for sale listings.

[MyNameIsNobody]

"Big" guys and gals have more knee, ankle and foot issues too. More weight on a frame results in more force...a lot more if technique is not there. Not surprised by this.

[AndyFromCB]

Keep in mind, that long bodies also sit at 5 degree positive angle on the ground as well. It's a lot easier to hit nose first and start the mooney dance on landing if you're not properly flaring. You can't land it like a Cirrus or a Malibu/Meridian. You really must flare.

 

I've done the mooney dance once, for two full cycles, before I hit the power for a go around. Not fun at all. Third one apparently is all the fun, for your A&P that is, as he will be eating steak and lobster for next few weeks...It happens so fast that there is just no way to save it other than a go around...You will be out of sync with the oscillations.

[triple8s]

A long body must be "finessed", a sloppy pilot in the pattern who is high and hot, wants to rush things on landing will get a lesson in who the boss really is. Treat her right with proper approach speeds and energy management and the landings are so perfect. Rush things and try to force her, its guaranteed not gonna happen. Reminds me of a relationship....

[PTK]

Jim that's is precisely why I decided against a missile and opted for the J!

I didn't want those headaches!

[bradp]

I saw one Ovation with a gear collapse on cape cod a few years ago (felt really bad for the owner who was a really nice guy). That collapse occurred when turning sharply for a tie down at predictably low speed. The owner attributed it to aggressive towing by an FBO. The second I just saw in a hanger. Another Ovation but this one was a runway overrun I heard upon landing with a tailwind.

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[PTK]

  On 6/24/2015 at 6:45 PM, bluehighwayflyer said:

I hear you, Doc. There is a lot to be said for "Keep(ing) It Simple, Stupid".

I really admire the capabilities of the Missile, though, in particular. But it all comes at a cost.

Jim

Jim, I'm not so sure the difference is really substantial.

Consider a 500 nm trip. In round numbers figure 165 knots TAS in a J it translates to 3 hours and 5 minutes. In a missile at 175 knots the same trip would take about 5 min short of 3 hours.

Correct my math if you need to but 10 or 15 min either way on a 500 nm trip is insignificant. And I haven't even mentioned the increased fuel costs.

[AndyFromCB]

  On 6/24/2015 at 7:29 PM, PTK said:

Jim, I'm not so sure the difference is really substantial.

Consider a 500 nm trip. In round numbers figure 165 knots TAS in a J it translates to 3 hours and 5 minutes. In a missile at 175 knots the same trip would take about 5 min short of 3 hours.

Correct my math if you need to but 10 min either way on a 500 nm trip is insignificant.

 

Well, 

 

Depends how you run your missile. The one I test flew before buying my Bravo, WOT at 8000 did easy 190 on 16gph. So if you're fighting headwinds, missile makes a lot of difference, 40knot headwind, J is down to doing 125 over the ground vs 150 in the missile. That's 40 minutes over 500nm. Then there is a climb rate which is insane. You're at 8000 in 5 minutes from sea level.

[mike_elliott]

  On 6/24/2015 at 5:24 PM, triple8s said:

A long body must be "finessed", a sloppy pilot in the pattern who is high and hot, wants to rush things on landing will get a lesson in who the boss really is. Treat her right with proper approach speeds and energy management and the landings are so perfect. Rush things and try to force her, its guaranteed not gonna happen. Reminds me of a relationship....

fly your mooney like the fine lady she is, don't horse her down to the ground like a $5 wh0r3 or a Cessna. She will smite you if you do, or reward you if you treat her well. 

[N33GG]

The only airplanes that don't deserve/require attention to proper landing technique with regard the nose gear are tail draggers. 

[RangerJim]

I was always taught that nose gears are not landing gears.  They are steering gears for ground operations only.

[AndyFromCB]

  On 6/25/2015 at 2:40 AM, RangerJim said:

I was always taught that nose gears are not landing gears.  They are steering gears for ground operations only.

 

You can say the same thing about the tailwheel...

[Hank]

  On 6/25/2015 at 2:43 AM, AndyFromCB said:

You can say the same thing about the tailwheel...

Except that a 3-point landing in a tail wheel is often a sign of skill, while in a nosewheel it's a bad landing and often leads to a go around for a second attempt to get it right.

[rocketman]

The best advice I can offer to prevent hard nose wheel landings it to watch your landing speeds. Watch Don Kays Landing video many times over and over. Simple concept to master but must be perfected on each landing. 

[AndyFromCB]

  On 6/25/2015 at 2:48 AM, Hank said:

Except that a 3-point landing in a tail wheel is often a sign of skill, while in a nosewheel it's a bad landing and often leads to a go around for a second attempt to get it right.

 

I know, I know, but wheel landings look so much cooler and take even more skill.

[Ftlausa]

The best advice on landings I received in training was to not be in a hurry to land.  Land nose high after holding if off in ground effect as long as possible and you wont bounce.  If the stall warning isn't on (except in strong cross winds), you landed too fast. Tail wheel training is great too. 

[N201MKTurbo]

I have never seen a collapsed nose gear on a mooney, does anybody know what failed? Something substantial needs to break or bend. Pictures would be good.

I would just like to know if it is a maintenance problem or a landing problem. Or both.

Even if the preloads were set too light, you would still have to bend the retraction rods to get it to collapse.

I guess on a very hard landing you could break the aluminum overcenter link where the bushings are, but that link should be mostly in compression.

[Guitarmaster]

I have always treated mine like a three pointing taildragger. If you don't, it will act like a taildragger and ping pong down the runway.

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[aviatoreb]

A hangar neighbor who used to have a nice M20C suffered a gear collapse about 5 years ago.  I was right there and saw it.  It was the Johnson bar.  As best we can tell, the mechanism just wore out.  Even though the plane was in fine shape, there was not much upgraded about it so the hull value was not very high, so the insurance company totalled it and just gave him a check.  He went out and bought a twin commanche.  Meanwhile someone somewhere bought that totalled Mooney and did the tear down inspection and it flies again somewhere.

 

Nose gears are not a strength on Mooneys.  This was in the back of my mind when I recently decided to upgrade my prop to something substantially lighter.  I got the MT to replace the Mcauley and saved 36lbs off the nose.  It is much lighter in pitch in flight, and hopefully a little lighter where the weight sits when it is on the ground.

 

Always try to touch the mains first when you land, and let that nose down lightly as late as possible.  That should really help and should be our mantra.

[cliffy]

Twin comamches have their own gear problems. Have you ever done a 1000 hr overhaul on a comanche gear?

Lots of work if you do it correctly.

[Mooneymite]

  On 6/25/2015 at 12:31 PM, AndyFromCB said:

I know, I know, but wheel landings look so much cooler and take even more skill.

 

Hmmmmm.  I don't necessarily agree.

 

I know a guy who can't fly a tail-dragger worth a darn, but he "flies it onto the ground" regularly basically using C-172 skills.  He can't do a full stall three-point to save his arse.

 

Wheel landings really don't require much finese at all, but perfectly timing the three point.....ya gotta know your plane.

[Hank]

The Mooney landing gear mechanism (manual and electric) is a solid four-bar mechanism-- they all move together or none move at all. I've heard of J bars coming unlocked and all wheels retracting on the ground, but never a nose-wheel-only collapse on a Mooney, barring previous damage such as severe PIO, runway excursion, etc. Something has to break for any one wheel to move alone.

[aviatoreb]

  On 6/25/2015 at 11:34 PM, Hank said:

The Mooney landing gear mechanism (manual and electric) is a solid four-bar mechanism-- they all move together or none move at all. I've heard of J bars coming unlocked and all wheels retracting on the ground, but never a nose-wheel-only collapse on a Mooney, barring previous damage such as severe PIO, runway excursion, etc. Something has to break for any one wheel to move alone.

 

Actually that is exactly what happened on the M20C I mentioned - the jbar slipped out of its lock position and all 3 gear collapsed.  I mis-spoke.