Is it just me? Takeoff vs Landing in crosswind

[Bob - S50]

Is it just me or does anybody else think it is more difficult to takeoff in a crosswind than it is to land in the same amount of crosswind?

 

For me, with a crosswind, when I approach takeoff speed, the plane seems to get pretty light in the feet and starts to scoot sideways, even when I'm applying aileron to hold the upwind wing down.  I've started using light forward pressure on the yoke until I'm ready to fly (about 65 KIAS) then rotate and get off the ground before I start drifting toward the dirt.  Even with that, any bump in the pavement that reduces weight on wheels and the plane starts to drift.

 

Anybody have any good techniques?

 

Bob

[chrisk]

It's not just you.  I too find it more difficult to take off in a cross wind, but not difficult.   And of course take offs are optional. 

[midlifeflyer]

It is pretty standard takeoff procedure (across makes and models) in a substantial crosswind to keep the airplane firmly on the ground until a decent flying speed is achieved and then pull it off briskly.

 

I think unless one trains in a environment that has substantial crosswinds, there's a tendency to focus on the landings to the exclusion of the takeoffs.

[201er]

Is it just me or does anybody else think it is more difficult to takeoff in a crosswind than it is to land in the same amount of crosswind?

For me, with a crosswind, when I approach takeoff speed, the plane seems to get pretty light in the feet and starts to scoot sideways, even when I'm applying aileron to hold the upwind wing down. I've started using light forward pressure on the yoke until I'm ready to fly (about 65 KIAS) then rotate and get off the ground before I start drifting toward the dirt. Even with that, any bump in the pavement that reduces weight on wheels and the plane starts to drift.

Anybody have any good techniques?

Bob

I disagree entirely. On takeoff you go from an environment of tight tolerances to an environment of looser ones. Landing is reversed. You have more room for being a bit off in the air than once back on the runway.

When you jump off the ground, it doesn't really matter if you continue to track the centerline perfectly or a little bit off. You have air, you have speed, and you have space. If you begin to drift, you have assurance that in a few knots of speed, you can just jump off the ground and deal with it in the air. Also as you accelerate down the takeoff roll, controls are becoming more responsive.

On landing, you have to go from a more forgiving environment to the runway. Going from sideways to straight is harder than from straight to sideways. Once on the ground, the decelarating airplane tries to weathervane with diminishing aerodynamic control. Breaking action can cause the wheels to skid some and during skids you blow sideways or weathervane.

So although I see your point of the helplessness of the run out of control authority feeling on takeoff, you generally have assurance of things improving with speed and altitude. On landing, the situation becomes increasingly more demanding until off the runway.

[aviatoreb]

I find it significantly easier to take-off in the same strong cross winds than to land.  Are you giving FULL aileron deflection if needed to "tip" the wing into the wind (quoted tip since your wheels are still on the ground) and then as you lift off, allow your airplane to weather vane into a crab (no action needed - you just lightly release what is the slip-like aileron position you were holding on the ground)?

[Marauder]

Is it just me or does anybody else think it is more difficult to takeoff in a crosswind than it is to land in the same amount of crosswind?

For me, with a crosswind, when I approach takeoff speed, the plane seems to get pretty light in the feet and starts to scoot sideways, even when I'm applying aileron to hold the upwind wing down. I've started using light forward pressure on the yoke until I'm ready to fly (about 65 KIAS) then rotate and get off the ground before I start drifting toward the dirt. Even with that, any bump in the pavement that reduces weight on wheels and the plane starts to drift.

Anybody have any good techniques?

Bob

Bob -- my POH has a comment in it about take-offs in a crosswind. It is something I follow. Rather than pulling lightly on the yoke during the roll, I don't and will get to rotate speed and pull it off quickly.

My runway is a bit bumpy and even on calm wind days, if I have any back pressure on the yoke, a bump will send me airborne before it is ready to fly.

[PTK]

...When you jump off the ground, it doesn't really matter if you continue to track the centerline perfectly or a little bit off. You have air, you have speed, and you have space. If you begin to drift, you have assurance that in a few knots of speed, you can just jump off the ground and deal with it in the air. Also as you accelerate down the takeoff roll, controls are becoming more responsive.

It does matter that you track the centerline! It most certainly does!

Proper technique is to keep full aileron into the wind. Allow airspeed to build and don't rush to rotate. Keep it on the runway until rotation speed. As airspeed increases aileron effectiveness increases with it. So we decrease aileron gradually as it does without sidesliping. As airplane becomes airborne let it yaw into the wind and track centerline in a crab.

We focus on and practice a lot more crosswind landings than we do xwind take offs. So the tendency we must resist is introducing a sideslip in a xwind takeoff.

[MyNameIsNobody]

It's just you...

[PMcClure]

Gusty crosswinds are even more fun. My technique is to use aileron into the wind and a good bit of force on the yoke (down) to staple the wheels on the pavement until I am sure the bird is ready to fly. None of this neutral or light pressure stuff on gusty days. That keeps her from trying to take off in a gust only to have it settle back down again.  I am not sure if this is a standard technique or not but works for me. 

[FloridaMan]

I'm usually ready for the plane to weathervane in crosswinds. I stay low til Vy and then climb out. 

 

One thing I noticed from watching videos that I recorded of my takeoffs right after getting the plane is that the plane would drift left when I'd lift off due to inadequate compensation for P-factor. 

[mike20papa]

Definately.  On final in a X-wind you cross control to maintain runway alignment and as speed decreases control input increases to counter drift & yaw.  It all happens at a predictable rate from an established set of control inputs.  You just fly the airplane down to the runway in a controlled slip starting from a known reference you don't really have to even know the numerical values of the wind speed & vector - the AC will tell you all you need to know and if you have enough control authority to handle the Xwind component at touch down - as you judge runway alignment..  With a take off, it's just the opposite,  You need to know the xwind componets before advancing the throttle, you need a definate starting point to set aileron x control and then you need to know left or right x wind as to what to expect rudder wise when you rotate.  I have flown off in strong xwinds - especially if from the left - demanding even more right rudder to counter act the weather vaning effect - that I have FULL right rudder to counter "P" factor and still fying hard yawed left and thinking something must be "broken" But, here in Texas, we fly some stiff x-winds or you don't fly at all.  But I will say a good x-wind take off is very rewarding!  And it's done smoothly, not by holding the AC to the pavement, then jerking it OFF!?

[MB65E]

Not just you! Strong left to right x-winds I now caution in my E. You run out of right rudder quickly if you bring the power up too fast. I have needed to reduce power in some cases. Just be smooth with everything, let the airplane accelerate slowly and keep the nose on the ground until you can feel the need for the rudder to dissipate. Once you back off the rudder, that's a known point where you know things are going the right direction. That beats the need to add rudder when it's at the stop already. It will get your attention if your not ready for it.

Fly safe!

-Matt

[Browncbr1]

it's a big vertical stab!  in a left cross wind, I find it took getting used to countering weather-vane, torque, and p factor at the same time... also, as the front end lightens, the steerable wheel has less authority... so, I noticed i have to mash more rudder as the nose lifts...     It doesn't seem to be as much in a right cross wind, as some of those forces seem to counter each other automatically.. 

[Andy95W]

Are you using flaps for takeoff? That could be the problem. Or, if you're not using them, maybe that's it.

[jlunseth]

Naw, crosswind landings are way more complicated than crosswind takeoffs.  There may be some skittering downwind with both, right when the aircraft gets light on its feet so you don't have much ground steerage, and not much airspeed either so not much rudder authority.  Obviously you keep the upwind aileron down but that also has limited effectiveness at slow speeds.  So you do all those things and be prepared to accept some skitter.  It does not last long in a takeoff.  It is important to pull the plane off at rotation speed, but the single most important thing is to be prepared to put in sufficient rudder so that the plane stays coordinated as it weathervanes. 

 

I can do a crosswind takeoff in pretty much any kind of wind, gusty, crosswind landings are the dicey part.

[chrisk]

Naw, crosswind landings are way more complicated than crosswind takeoffs.  There may be some skittering downwind with both, right when the aircraft gets light on its feet so you don't have much ground steerage, and not much airspeed either so not much rudder authority.  Obviously you keep the upwind aileron down but that also has limited effectiveness at slow speeds.  So you do all those things and be prepared to accept some skitter.  It does not last long in a takeoff.  It is important to pull the plane off at rotation speed, but the single most important thing is to be prepared to put in sufficient rudder so that the plane stays coordinated as it weathervanes. 

 

I can do a crosswind takeoff in pretty much any kind of wind, gusty, crosswind landings are the dicey part.

 

It's the perfect takeoff without the skittering that is hard in the cross wind for me, especially a gusty one.  As you mentioned, you don't have much control authority at lower speeds, and you know you didn't have it quite right when the airplane gets light and skitters a little. 

 

And I agree gusty cross winds are the dicey part, especially if there are trees or hills near the runway that disrupt the airflow.  It makes the last 20 feet to the runway interesting and busy.    I learned to fly at 20N before the runway was widened.  As I recall the runway was about 25 feet wide, surrounded by trees, a hill at one end, and a drop off at the other.  Landings were certainly a challenge on gusty crosswind days, and I definitely exercised the spring landing gear on the 152 I was flying.

 

Anyway, I think Mooneys are great in crosswinds.  Certainly much better than some of the Cessna's I've flown. 

[aaronk25]

Keep that up wind wheel planted! yoke all the way over even while you rotate if needed just don't let that wheel slide..not even a inch. Keep it planted!

So what if the other wheel leaves the pavement first during rotation you then can ease off the airleon and pick up the wheel you had planted.

Fly it with authority you are the captain or it will fly you!

99% of the time you will be a mouse at the controls the other 1% be the 500lb gorilla.

This is time to be the gorilla.

[Amelia]

Don't know if this is kosher or not, but I am blessed with a nice wide runway at home, so on takeoff into a stiff crosswind I start my takeoff roll at the downwind edge of the runway,  nose-down, and down aileron and right rudder as necessary, add power, and angle toward the upwind corner of the runway, gradually straightening the flight path as the speed builds. This cuts my crosswind component considerably.

[AndyFromCB]

I think those of us who acquired our flying skills in the midwest do not understand what it is you folks are talking about. 15G25 is considered calm around here 9 months out of the year ;-) 

[bonal]

For me it seems the landings are real easy as I have the final approach to set the plane the way I need for the cross component so landing its already stable. Departure is a little less certain as the plane is gaining speed and control surface authority is changing. using no flaps and a little extra nose down trim seems to keep things straight and setting the control to windward and letting the speed build up a little more before rotation works good for me.

[Piloto]

Bob try half the flap setting than the TO flaps setting. It works very well for me. If the cross winds are strong and gusty I use no flaps. On wavy runways I use no flaps because the nose wheel will bounce.

If you need to keep forward pressure on the yoke on take off check the trim setting. Try using more down trim. Check also the trim indicator calibration. Pushing on the yoke on take off can cause a prop strike.

José

[midlifeflyer]

Are you using flaps for takeoff? That could be the problem. Or, if you're not using them, maybe that's it.

It should not make any difference if your technique is sound.

[M20F]

What if the plane is on a treadmill.....

[Tommy]

Little bit more airspeed before rotating (ie don't pull back on the elevator when rolling) + Positive control! Or ismply, don't take off! Especially if it's really gusty and wind direction changes from head to tail wind all the time. Or when the runway is bumpy that can throw you in the air rather unexpectedly. https://ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20130303X91231&ntsbno=CEN13FA183&akey=1

 

The key is airspeed in both the landing and take-off. The difference is that on take-off you need to build it whilst on landing you need to bleed them. So on take off you gain more and more command of your aircraft whilst in landing you loose it!

 

In other words, everything else equal, landing should be harder than take off

[aviatoreb]

What if the plane is on a treadmill.....

 

Like this?

 

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