Mooney Down in San Diego

[flyboy0681]

Wondering why a 550-equipped M20L wouldn't be climbing like a bat of hell.  She reported to the tower that she was full throttle.  

 

 

 

 

What is particularly unnerving are the number of accidents recently that are attributed to the loss of power on takeoff, Mike Elliott being one of them. What the hell is going on here?

[IndyTim]

That would be an awfully tough place to put one down - it does look like, given the lack of positive v/s for whatever reason, she did a pretty good job.

 

I'm wondering about the gear up decision, if there even was a decision (possibly not due to the short time frame).  

 

Would you have landed gear up or gear down in this scenario, if you had time to choose?  Is the stopping distance shorter gear up or gear down with brakes?

 

A go-round that didn't make it. I may have an old photo of this plane at Mod Works after Hurricane Charlie. Another gut wrenching shame!

.....

.....

Carter praised the pilot's landing and said things could have been much worse.

"This is a miracle and testament to her skill as a pilot," he told KNSD-TV. "This could have very easily killed a lot of people. You could imagine, just shopping at Target, and a plane comes through the roof full of fuel."

"She stalled it out pretty much perfectly in the only spot she possibly could have," he said.

[IndyTim]

What is particularly unnerving are the number of accidents recently that are attributed to the loss of power on takeoff, Mike Elliott being one of them. What the hell is going on here?

 

 

It's unnerving, the number of accidents this summer.  Period.

[ArtVandelay]

 

I'm wondering about the gear up decision, if there even was a decision (possibly not due to the short time frame).  

 

Would you have landed gear up or gear down in this scenario, if you had time to choose?  Is the stopping distance shorter gear up or gear down with brakes?

Good question, if you had to land in a parking lot, maybe 400' long, there is no way you could do it with gear down, you just bounce if you tried to force it down...and probably wouldn't slow down much.

The only other option would be to simply yank the yoke back and stall the plane. One of the reports I read the witness stated she stalled the plane in the only place she could. Don't know if he actually meant it literally.

[ToddDPT]

Wow!  I just flew out of Montgomery this past Sunday and there is not a good spot to put a plane down just after takeoff.  Thoughts and prayers for all involved.

[fantom]

http://airplanesusa.com/inventory/?Display=Details&Inventory_Id=411 Some history on N147MP

 

"- Regarding N147MP's useful load: Mod Works of Punta Gorda, Florida completed the aircraft's Ovation STC conversion in 2004.  They had not yet begun the subsequent STC to increase its maximum gross weight when Hurricane Charley severely damaged their facility and the company ceased  operations.  Luckily, the aircraft was not there! However, the STC was not offered afterwards and, despite the aircraft having power to spare, it's useful load could thus not be increased.  It was actually reduced somewhat due to the higher weight of the new engine."

[PMcClure]

At 2900 Max Gross, 280hp should be climbing, regardless of full fuel, or configuration. 

[mikesalman]

She might have put full flaps to slow down just before impact?

[DaV8or]

Someone on beechtalk speculated that, if there were multiple bounces before go-around, possibly a bent prop.  That would make the engine sound funny to those who know what it should sound like.

 

Nice theory, but if you watch the videos, you can see the one visible prop blade has a little damage to the trailing edge of the blade. It looks more like crash damage than a typical prop strike. From what we know and can see, it appears the plane was configured correctly. Gear up, likely IMO the flaps up, no speed brakes and full throttle. We don't know about mixture and RPM though. However, I would think that even if the prop were set at a cruise setting, with full power there should be enough thrust to climb.

 

I have two theories.

1. She was one of those that are a proponent of leaving the mixture lean in the pattern, or forgot the GUMPS check. I know I have in the past. Then when she applied sudden full power, the engine coughed and quit, possibly she then threw the mixture back in, but the engine was slow to restart as it is basically a hot restart.
2. In the hard bounced landing, something was jarred loose in the engine compartment that made only partial power possible. I'm not sure if this is a turbo engine or not, but there is a lot of plumbing in there, fuel, intake and even exhaust could cause a loss of power.

[fantom]

The M20L only has a capacity of 61 gallons, if I am not mistaken. 

 

Correct, for N147MP. No extended tanks.

[PMcClure]

I have two guesses:  1. Unknown mechanical Issue. 2.  Fuel Starvation. The fire is minimal and the left wing has no fire damage. She was also likely out on a sight seeing trip with her mother. I doubt she was aggressively leaning and even if she was at 2300 rpm it would still climb with full throttle. 

 

Regardless, she seemed to flying the plane to the ground, likely saving herself and countless people on the ground. 

[carqwik]

I have another theory about loss of enough power: fuel vapor lock as a result of no boost pump being on.  I have a friend who crashed his Cirrus SR-22 (same engine I think as the accident airplane) on a go-around after practicing an emergency descent (engine out scenario) from 5,000 feet.  He claimed (and the data analyzer revealed) that the engine only made it to 2300 rpm or so (which is less than full power) with the throttle lever at the stop (according to him) until they crashed in the desert off the runway.  Although the NTSB never found a real cause or explanation of the engine power loss, I think it was vapor lock.  He didn't recall putting on the boost pump...although he wasn't sure whether it was on or off.  Although the NTSB findings suggested a delayed go-around and failure to raise the flaps, I can tell you that the plane would easily climb in that configuration with full power.  And post accident analysis suggested no problems with the engine....which was likely true except they could not replicate the "vapor lock" scenario...a hot engine at idle descending for some time before power up.

NTSB: This is just a theory on my part...and I have no idea whether it might be even remotely related to this accident.

 

I think this applies to the design of the Continental engines...and I'm a Lycoming driver.  But there was another Cirrus 22 that had a similar accident about a year before as my friend...no full power achieved.  http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20040105X00007&key=1

 

Best wishes to the survivor and RIP for her mother.

[PMcClure]

No boost pump for the IO 550 on take off or landing.

[BorealOne]

Very sad for all concerned, and sobering for our community. I'm impressed by the fact the pilot flew this all the way in and avoided causing collateral injuries to people or property - a remarkable outcome and a testament to her skills.

 

As to cause - As an O driver, I know that a normally functioning IO550 can generate enough power to climb in any flaps or gear configuration, even at gross on hot days. From the reports, this wasn't a spin/stall - she was flying, but the plant wasn't producing adequate power to maintain flight. Like others, I suspect engine damage occurred on the bounce, or that the mixture was incorrectly set for the go-around and not corrected in time. 

[cujet]

I don't want to speculate on what happened. 

 

What I do want to remind everybody of is that the "basics" are critical. Having enough fuel, runway and altitude. Ensuring flight controls are free, landing gear is where it should be, and pitot covers are off, engine has oil,,, are examples of what I'm talking about. 

 

A recent GIV crash seems to be related to the fact that the flight crew never bothered to "box" the flight controls (to ensure freedom/proper movement) . A local twin/piston fatal crash was due to a fuel selector being in the "OFF" position. All of us should study the accident reports. Then make every effort to avoid the mistakes others make. 

 

I look at it this way. Once the basics are covered fully and properly, risks are very significantly reduced. I can't predict when that exhaust valve will break off. I can predict that running out of fuel will result in a forced landing. 

 

We have serious safety issues in GA. Some of them can be fully addressed by the proper application of technology. Better training and education might help (statistically, it does not seem to help GA numbers) But, all of us can address the basics properly, thereby reducing our risk. 

 

1) Pilots still run out of fuel. Some even take off with no fuel...

2) Pilots continue to depart hot, high and heavy

3) Pilots continue to avoid proper preflights

4) Our best pilots still fly into awful weather conditions (Scott Crossfield, Steve Fossett)

5) Pilots still fly low and buzz. The result is often a tangle with powerlines, trees, swamp, lakes, and more.

and on and on. 

 

I don't have the answers. I do know that we can make an effort to avoid doing stupid things.

[drmarkflies]

As to cause - As an O driver, I know that a normally functioning IO550 can generate enough power to climb in any flaps or gear configuration, even at gross on hot days. From the reports, this wasn't a spin/stall - she was flying, but the plant wasn't producing adequate power to maintain flight. Like others, I suspect engine damage occurred on the bounce, or that the mixture was incorrectly set for the go-around and not corrected in time. 

I agree there is enough power to climb in a high power, long body Mooney in any configuration if you keep the nose down, but you really have got to push right after a bounced landing, especially if the bounce starts an oscillation... and you've got to get the right rudder in fast and hard. If the nose isn't down at first, I mean down to 8-degrees or less, it will feel like the engine is not putting out much power at full throttle, and even though you get a little anemic climb at first, you are rewarded with a mushing sink and a left turn. If you've seen the M20L animation, this scenario will seem familiar. I've been there. Fortunately, I was taught to PUSH first and ask questions later. Somebody please tell me why "they" don't teach that before you take your first solo? It takes big muscle memory to push, because all you want to do is pull.

 

I hope all you Mooney drivers rehearse an after takeoff engine failure routine before every flight. You do right? It will save you even when (or especially if) you try to stall a perfectly good airplane.

 

I'd love to hear what mental check list you rehearse before every flight. 

 

I use this...

 

 PSADS ("push", "switch" (fuel, boost, alt air), "aim", "drag" (gear, flaps), "secure" (master, fuel, door).

 

Keep well trained ya'll.

[Joe Zuffoletto]

I bounced a landing at John Wayne airport (KSNA) last month and had to go around. This was my second go-around in the Acclaim since I bought it. It's no joke because the landing trim is set nearly full aft while takeoff trim is about two-thirds forward. Once you apply full throttle the plane wants to go straight up. It's unnerving. You've got to push HARD and work that trim wheel like hell... the electric trim isn't nearly fast enough.

 

Just my experience. I have no idea why the subject plane crashed. A terrible shame.

[PMcClure]

Joe - my experience is that if I wait to dump the flaps until I get the trim under control, it reduces the pressure required. As you know, when you put the flaps in, you get a significant pitch down, so you add more trim. On the go around, adding full throttle in addition to dumping the flaps causes the nose up attitude. I put the throttle in,  trim the controls then remove flaps in steps, continuously trimming. This avoids much of the pressure required. Everyone who has a long body should practice go arounds on a regular basis. It has been a while since I did one, but will get out there soon. 

[aviatoreb]

I've been there. Fortunately, I was taught to PUSH first and ask questions later. Somebody please tell me why "they" don't teach that before you take your first solo? It takes big muscle memory to push, because all you want to do is pull.

 

 

It's no joke because the landing trim is set nearly full aft while takeoff trim is about two-thirds forward. Once you apply full throttle the plane wants to go straight up. It's unnerving. You've got to push HARD and work that trim wheel like hell... the electric trim isn't nearly fast enough.

 

 

I strongly suspect this is what happened to the Mooney that went down in Lake Placid two weeks ago during a stall spin immediately following a go around.

 

I have had the occasion to go around for one reason or another - Just what Joe said.  In landing flaps and trim configuration, you really gotta push very hard to keep pitched properly since the Rocket also wants to go straight up otherwise under full power for go around.

[drmarkflies]

What is particularly unnerving are the number of accidents recently that are attributed to the loss of power on takeoff, Mike Elliott being one of them. What the hell is going on here?

I think some of use still think of our prop like a rocket. It isn't. It is a wing that can stall. At a higher wing angle of attack and low airspeed, the prop will have a higher angle of attack also. That means at some pitch attitude, the prop will stall completely and you will have no power regardless of engine HP. I'm sure you engineers out there can explain the physics better, but in practice a botched landing means to me PUSH to keep the nose absolutely as low a feasible until you get near Vx. If you bounce and get oscillation, you absolutely have to PUSH and hold or you will loose it. Once you get to Vx,  you will quickly catch up with both a faster climb rate and more power from the prop. PUSH, POWER, RUDDER, then worry about cleaning up the drag when you have a positive rate of climb. Obviously, don't PUSH so hard that the nose wheel goes into the ground, but you have to keep the nose down to get maximum power out of the prop.

[Joe Zuffoletto]

Joe - my experience is that if I wait to dump the flaps until I get the trim under control, it reduces the pressure required.

You're absolutely right and that's pretty much how I do it. Add throttle, work the trim, establish a positive climb rate. Then I raise the gear and the flaps when things settle down a bit!

[BorealOne]

I agree there is enough power to climb in a high power, long body Mooney in any configuration if you keep the nose down, but you really have got to push right after a bounced landing, especially if the bounce starts an oscillation... and you've got to get the right rudder in fast and hard. If the nose isn't down at first, I mean down to 8-degrees or less, it will feel like the engine is not putting out much power at full throttle, and even though you get a little anemic climb at first, you are rewarded with a mushing sink and a left turn. If you've seen the M20L animation, this scenario will seem familiar. I've been there. Fortunately, I was taught to PUSH first and ask questions later. Somebody please tell me why "they" don't teach that before you take your first solo? It takes big muscle memory to push, because all you want to do is pull.

 

 

 

Agree. I came to the Ovation after 500 or so hours flying floats and Lake Amphibians. Bounced landings and oscillations ('porpoising') are way more of a factor in the water environment. I was drilled repeatedly on recoveries from the bounce, and they all involved keeping level with the horizon while you make the instant decision to either add power for a go-around or land on the remaining. That transitioned well into managing a long-body Mooney in a bounce off a runway. 

[IndyTim]

Preliminary NTSB report is here:  http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20140731X02420&key=1

 

She reports flaps and gear were down.  

[DaV8or]

Preliminary NTSB report is here:  http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20140731X02420&key=1

 

She reports flaps and gear were down.  

 

I'm sorry, but I don't think that means much. A Mooney with that engine and not fully loaded, nor high DA, will climb regardless of gear and flaps down. I personally believe the pilot when she said that the engine just wasn't making full power. I think further investigation will show a mechanical failure at some point.

[BobAustin]

Saw this today

 

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=5cc80a63-9798-499c-8d24-8eb3a7b8a733

 

Someone claiming to be FAA visiting the hospital room after a fatal accident....sick