'87 252/Encore panel upgrade plans

[Cruiser]

your autopilot is driven by the King AI that needs the vacuum system. Unless you go with the Aspen setup they have a replacement for the AI, the G500 does not. 

[IndyTim]

I should have clarified: I'm installing the G500 w/ GAD43e.  I believe this allows the King AI to be replaced, doesn't it?

[Cruiser]

Yes, that should work.

[Marauder]

Hey Maurader, please join us...It is great fun!  just don't tell my wife why we are there...

 

BTW on the crossfill, the 430 talks to the 750, but only if BOTH databases are up to date. That means that you have to pay US$ 1000 to Jepp to keep both current. I must say that I really don't know if this is SO IMPORTANT to spend US$ 500 additionally.... I feel that it is not.

 

Any opinions.

 

I'm already a charter member of this little club. In fact, I'm looking forward to the Bendix King 770 when it is released this month. 

 

I should have clarified: I'm installing the G500 w/ GAD43e.  I believe this allows the King AI to be replaced, doesn't it?

 

Just make sure your particular autopilot is supported. The GAD-43e was introduce to handle some of the analog only stuff the original GAD-43 did not. Read the fine print... You also know that your TAS will display at this point, but not your GDL-88 until they release the software?

[larryb]

My understanding is that if you have the 750/650 you pay the "pilot pack" subscription which includes all of the GTN databases in the plane. Effectively, you don't have to pay twice. But if you keep the 430, you will have to pay twice because the pilot pack does not cover the 430. So your yearly subscriptions will be much less if you replace the 430 with the 650. Since 430's are worth so much used now days, I would go that route. If you keep the plane a few years, you'll pay for it.

 

The one thing I wouldn't buy in your shopping list is the GDL69. For $4200 it gives you XM radio and weather, nothing you don't get with a lot lower cost in the 796. If you don't want your 796 on the yoke, you can do as I did and put it in an Airgizmos panel mount.

[FlyDave]

Tim,

 

Just a quick thought: you may want to pickle your engine after dropping it off the to the avionics shop. I've heard of avionics shops taking from 1 - 3 months to get a job complete and according to some people on this board that is way to long for an airplane not to fly (re: corrosion).

Just a thought.

 

Dave

[IndyTim]

Larryb, thanks for the info on the pilotpak. I was looking into that and it does simplify the licensing and reduce the cost. It's enough to push me over the hump on the 650 decision. It looks like I'm trudging right down the path that Garnin's product managers want me to be on.

Dave - that's good advice regarding the engine. I hadn't thought of pickling it. I did run across a Continental bulletin that recommends pickling for storage from 30 to 90 days. Thanks.

[IndyTim]

marauder - I'm still trying to figure out what's real and what's not with GDL88 installation. Thanks. Is this GDL88 sw or is it GTN750 sw that's preventing the display? Or both?

Looks like the KAP150 is supported by the 43e. On paper.

[Marauder]

marauder - I'm still trying to figure out what's real and what's not with GDL88 installation. Thanks. Is this GDL88 sw or is it GTN750 sw that's preventing the display? Or both? Looks like the KAP150 is supported by the 43e. On paper.

The GDL-88 is designed to work with the GTN series (full capability) and the GNS series (limited capability). At this point it will display on either but not on the G500/600 series until they release the sw upgrade for the G500/600 series. It will come, but is not available today. Check out the differences between the GTN and GNS display capabilities (on the compatibility tab): https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/digital/in-the-air/avionics-safety/weather-solutions/gdl-88-series/prod63471.html

[Bob_Belville]

The GDL 88 cost me $3795. It displays traffic and free weather on the GTN750. I was able to get rid of a monthly XM weather subscription that I had on the 696.And 2010 is taken care of. 

[KSMooniac]

Definitely agree on pickling the engine.  No sense in tempting the corrosion gods with potential engine damage after such a big upgrade!

 

I'd check out the PS Engineering audio panels over the Garmin.  I have a GMA 340 and wish I had a PSE and I think they are just better designed by true audio specialists.

 

I'm very sensitive to recurring costs, and XM weather, Garmin/Jepp databases, etc. add up to a significant expense.  I haven't searched out the newer GTN data prices, but definitely figure out what the all-in monthly costs are for each configuration under consideration.  If two GTNs end up cheaper than one GTN + one GNS, then that should factor in heavily.  Keep in mind the GNS boxes still have a lot of value right now, but whenever the KSN and IFD boxes finally start shipping then the value will drop quickly.  You might be wise to go ahead and go with dual GTNs.

 

I don't see the need to install active traffic systems in our class of planes unless you fly in a very, very congested area.  I've had TIS via my GTX-330ES for years and it is quite helpful in big metro areas like DFW where I fly now and then.  99% of the time I'm in the system and have the controllers keeping an eye on me as well.  Recently I configured for ADS-B out (with a GDL 39) and that was very nice too.  I think the additional traffic an active system might display over an ADS-B OUT equipped plane with a receiver (portable or panel-mount) has got to be negligible, but perhaps I could be convinced otherwise.  I think it would be wiser to put traffic money towards the GDL 88 (if you must have panel-mount) or similar and you'll probably get a lot more value and functionality.

 

I'm a fan of getting rid of the vacuum system and recover that useful load and there is no reason you couldn't do it with the GAD43+G500 combo.  There are a few electric + battery AI's on the market that would work nicely for backup.  

 

I suppose a GDL 69A makes sense with the newer GTN or G500 screen as a display, but I know when I thought about it years ago the graphics were terrible on the low-res GNS screens compared to the 496, so I went with the 496 and it has proved to be a tremendous value over the last 6 years for me.  I'm leaning heavily towards ditching XM entirely and using ADS-B once I start flying again, but I'm having trouble making that decision...XM has more "product" but at tremendous cost while ADS-B is perhaps good enough.  I would sample the weather interface and graphic display on the GTN and G500 and see if it is (a) as nice as your 796, ( easy enough to use, and © doesn't hinder other functionality when needed on either device.  For example, can you enter in a new routing while keeping the weather display up?  Does the GDL 69A offer exactly the same products that I'm used to on a 496?  Things like winds aloft and icing levels will be very useful for you.  

 

If you're doing such a major panel update, I would also get rid of all the legacy engine instruments and go all-in for an EDM-900 or 930, or MVP-50.  

 

And finally, no you're not nuts for doing this!  As Don K mentioned, you'll end up with utterly amazing and modern capability for much less than the cost of a new plane that might not even compare.  A custom gray panel will look great in that plane, too.

 

EDIT:  I'll add that retaining your 796 and perhaps putting it in a panel mount will be cheaper than a second panel-mount GPS upgrade and the GDL 69A, while giving you similar functionality and a battery backup nav.  You can crossfill from a Garmin panel-mount to the 796 so the flight plan data gets "pushed" downstream (I do that with my 496).  I have a 530W/430W combo (+496) and it is certainly nice, but a bit of overkill IMO.  (I bought the plane with 530/430 installed and upgraded both to WAAS.)  The modern boxes are reliable, and I'm not sure having two GPS boxes is really necessary these days, especially if you already have a "regular" nav/com box for #2.  Just more food for thought if budget is a concern...

[donkaye]

 

EDIT: I'm not sure having two GPS boxes is really necessary these days, especially if you already have a "regular" nav/com box for #2.  Just more food for thought if budget is a concern...

 

If you're getting the G500, then having the second GPS IS worthwhile, since if the 1st one goes out the second one will feed the G500 in its place.

 

If spending this much money on a new panel, I would go ALL IN and get EVERYTHING you could possibly want $$$ be damned.

[Aron Peterson]

Well, I've sorted through several topics over the weekend with help from everyone here.  Thanks to all. 

- GDL88 vs GTS800 vs both

- 430 vs 430w vs 255 vs 650

- JPI 830 vs EI MVP vs G4

 

On to the next topic, which is: when I install the G500, I'll have a choice of two AIs to retain: the King or the Castleberry AI with inclinometer.  I'm tempted to go all electric and get the backup battery for the Castleberry (if available).  

 

I haven't found any evidence on this forum of anyone actually removing the vacuum system in one of our planes - other than the AI and DG is there anything else that requires it?

[Aron Peterson]

You may want to check and see how your speed brakes are powered. When I removed my vacuum system I had to keep the alternate electric vacuum pump in the rear of the aircraft to run my speed brakes.

Aron

[IndyTim]

You may want to check and see how your speed brakes are powered. When I removed my vacuum system I had to keep the alternate electric vacuum pump in the rear of the aircraft to run my speed brakes.

Aron

Good catch.  I bet they are vacuum.   Thanks for the heads up.

[carusoam]

Precise Flight makes the speed brakes and the back up vacuum system. Hmmmmmmm...

Best regards,

-a-

[Parker_Woodruff]

Good catch. I bet they are vacuum. Thanks for the heads up.

They are vacuum driven.

[Aron Peterson]

On my descent checklist I turn on my stby vacuum pump. Then turn it off after landing checklist.

[Bob_Belville]

The only system that require vacuum for me are the backup AI and the step retraction. The loss of these would certainly not create any issues in safely continuing to my destination. When we redid the panel we removed the BU vacuum. Good riddance. 

[Aron Peterson]

I rarely use the speedbrakes. I flew with an old Piedmont captain and he said if you use use speedbrakes you've screw it up.

[Parker_Woodruff]

I rarely use the speedbrakes. I flew with an old Piedmont captain and he said if you use use speedbrakes you've screw it up.

Plenty of times it helps for legitimate reason. ATC wants best forward speed but then you need to get the speed down to get the gear down (below 140 KIAS).

[donkaye]

I did a writeup on speed brake usage some time ago, that may be of interest.

 

http://www.donkaye.com/donkaye.com/Use_of_Speed_Brakes.html

[Bob_Belville]

Don, I agree with your basic guild lines for speed brakes. I would suggest that in an old E that has a gear speed of 104 K, flap speed of 87 K and Vno, top of the green @ 130 K the judicious use of sbrakes is even more helpful than on your M20M. Mixing in with airliners in a plane with a Vso of 50 K in IMC is tough on controllers. I recall landing at KIAD more than 30 years ago in 200-1/2 conditions. Even though I carried as much speed as possible as long as possible the airliner behind me was given a go around. Had I had SBs I might have been able to be a little more accommodating.

[Marauder]

Don, I agree with your basic guild lines for speed brakes. I would suggest that in an old E that has a gear speed of 104 K, flap speed of 87 K and Vno, top of the green @ 130 K the judicious use of sbrakes is even more helpful than on you M20. Mixing in with airliners in a plane with a Vso of 50 K in IMC is tough on controllers. I recall landing at KIAD more than 30 years ago in 200-1/2 conditions. Even though I carried as much speed as possible as long as possible the airliner behind me was given a go around. Had I had SBs I might have been able to be a little more accommodating.

Bob -- I never knew how bad I had it until I flew with a K owner this past weekend. When he tossed out the gear at around 140 KIAS, I was left salivating in the co-pilot seat. Speed brakes are one piece of equipment I do wish I had. Like you, I have been caught in an awkward position of trying to bleed off airspeed to get the flaps and gear down while on an approach. Not a good situation.

And I have also had the dubious honor on IPCs of bringing CFIIs a large chunk of humble pie when I explained to them that all that rhetoric they said I was spewing about "needing to slow down" wasn't rhetoric.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[donkaye]

Don, I agree with your basic guild lines for speed brakes. I would suggest that in an old E that has a gear speed of 104 K, flap speed of 87 K and Vno, top of the green @ 130 K the judicious use of sbrakes is even more helpful than on you M20. Mixing in with airliners in a plane with a Vso of 50 K in IMC is tough on controllers. I recall landing at KIAD more than 30 years ago in 200-1/2 conditions. Even though I carried as much speed as possible as long as possible the airliner behind me was given a go around. Had I had SBs I might have been able to be a little more accommodating.

 

Actually, you're right.  They would be much more valuable on the models with the lower gear speeds.  I have to say, though, that after hearing groans from airline pilots on the radio when told that they will be following a Mooney in on final to San Jose, its sort of fun to key the mike and say, "C'mon now, 170 knots on final isn't going to slow you down", and hear not a word for the rest of the final.  I'll slow down to 160 at 5 miles, hit the speed brakes, slow within a couple of seconds to 140, lower the gear, a couple of seconds later at 110 go to full flaps and touch down like the airliners at the 1,000 foot stripe.