JUST A LITTLE WARNING FOR YOU GUYS

[CDF219]

       Good day all, I just want to share a buying experience with All American Aircraft in San Antonio Texas with you. Some may know Jimmy Garrison and David Magee there. I will start by saying my inital buying experience was pretty bad I showed up earlier than I was supposed to and was just hanging out walking around looking at other airplanes as I observed two men working on the Mooney I was there to buy. Later one of those men would be identified as David Magee, I overheard (ok I was listening to their conversation) about the Mooney I was iterested in , they were joking around about how the ad stated custom interior and it just meant they pulled the plastic out and painted it and recovered the armrest with some material. They advertised that the airplane had new headliner and carpet as well as new seats. Come to find out the seats were (NEW) but just new to that airplane, taken from another and installed in mine. The headliner (yea) it looks like crap now only 7 months later. Its stretch material that is now not stretched and hanging down and just looks bad. I decided even after hearing the comments and all that were made I would still go fly the plane and see how it was .

 

I should have gone with my gut feeling when the battery was dead, and then the comms did not work.. We went and flew it and I fell in love with it. I decided to have a prebuy done....I had a mechanic they reccomended (Ron Fisher) well he did the pre buy and said all looked well.. I decided to move forward with the purchase so when I was flying it i noticed how bad the windows were clouded and ordered them to be replaced, with all new (Great Lakes Aero) wich was their reccomendation to do the smoked glass in front and double smoked in the back. I said ok...Of course this is at my expense like 2000.00 with the glass and labor. They had (their guy) Ron Fisher put the glass in. I have to admit, it looked great. Here we are 7 months later and now I have a window that has stress cracked from what great lakes and my A&P stated was an install error. If you look at the attached pics you can see the crack starts at the screw head from not being cleaned properly and most likely over torqued and worked its way up. This was found after removing my cover and getting ready to go fly the day after the first FREEZE of the year here in Atlanta Ga.

 

I called David Magee of All American and explained my situation and his first remark was well we didnt install that glass. I said, "no, you did not, but your "guy" Ron Fisher did, on your reccomendation I went with him". David said to me " I will call Ron and see what he says" well a few hours later I called him back to see what they came up with. David said "Ron says its not his fault it was fine when it left" ---keep in mind 7 months and 60 hours ago-- warm weather prevailed. I said ok so you nor (YOUR) A&P offer any warranty on the work performed parts or labor? David answered quickly with...NO...

 

I have to say the nice people at Great Lakes Aero are super understanding and explained what happened how if the A&P that does the install don't clean the holes after drilling then a bur can cause the stress crack and when the cold weather came it spread. It was explained very well and I know without a doubt it was an install error.

 

I am now out $500.00 that is in no way my fault and the people I trusted to take care of me after the sale and spent a crap tone of money are now treating me like I don't exist. I would caution anyone that may be thinking about doing business with All American Aircraft Sales in San Antonio Texas. I was told monday that Jimmy Garrison would be in touch or e mail me on tuesday, well no suprise....Nothing....

 

Ron Fisher (Fisher Aviation)    Be careful with this guy!!!!

[scottfromiowa]

Sorry to hear you are having this experience. My partner and I replaced our side windows ourselves a coupe of years ago. It is not an exact science...and a lot of work. We also replaced headliner. Used Airtex material and glued them in. Really like result for not a lot of money if you get the urge to "do it yourself". I made a lot of mistakes as a new first time buyer. There are some opportunities for you (upon reflection) for what you'd do different "next time too"?...I definitely do. Don't let it sour your experience with your bird...Use it as an Opportunity to learn and make her better.

[pinerunner]

You can learn a lot from this site. I think its smart to find a good mechanic before you buy your first plane but who's going to do that? Its sad that its easier to make a few savy friends after you buy your first plane when you could really use their advice before. 

[Cruiser]

It sounds like you are becoming a seasoned airplane owner. While I feel your pain (well not really, but sometimes hearing that helps a little) $500 in the scope of buying a used airplane is not bad at all. There are some real horror stories out there.

 

Thanks for the head up, I hope you got a good deal on your purchase and you are happy with the plane.

 

Jimmy, are you listening? $500 is not much for good customer relations.......... take care of this customer.

[rbridges]

Chris, that sucks.  Sorry to see that.  I hope someone will decide to help you out with your situation.

[jwilkins]

Your real beef seems be with the mechanic who did the work, but it was 7 months ago. This is an unfortunate situation, and, in my (multiple) experiences not typical of my dealings with AAA

HOWEVER, "keep in mind 7 months and 60 hours ago" makes this more of a grey area.

When ANYONE makes a referral to a mechanic, an avionics shop, an interior shop, or ANY other supplier it does not mean the person making the referral is responsible for the work.

 

Yes, you had a $500 issue you had to swallow. Your beef may be with Ron, but bashing AAA over a referral they made 7 months after the work was done is not good form.

 

I also don't see what value there is on playing out comments you overheard before you decided to buy this plane. You heard the comments, you bought the plane.

 

I hope you don't let a $500 repair disrupt you from enjoying your new plane. 

[Shadrach]

Your real beef seems be with the mechanic who did the work, but it was 7 months ago. This is an unfortunate situation, and, in my (multiple) experiences not typical of my dealings with AAA

HOWEVER, "keep in mind 7 months and 60 hours ago" makes this more of a grey area.

When ANYONE makes a referral to a mechanic, an avionics shop, an interior shop, or ANY other supplier it does not mean the person making the referral is responsible for the work.

 

Yes, you had a $500 issue you had to swallow. Your beef may be with Ron, but bashing AAA over a referral they made 7 months after the work was done is not good form.

 

I also don't see what value there is on playing out comments you overheard before you decided to buy this plane. You heard the comments, you bought the plane.

 

I hope you don't let a $500 repair disrupt you from enjoying your new plane. 

 

From your post I gather that you think 7 months and 60hrs is an unreasonable warranty period? Installing windows is not rocket science. What is the point in paying a credentialed mx to do what is supposed to be quality work if they won't back it up? My auto mechanic backs up his work for a year or 30K miles. The reason why I do not frequent large repair stations or A&Ps with a fixed base anymore is for precisely this reason... Lousy customer service. Give me a pickup truck IA that will work with me any day; at least if something goes TU during a repair, I'll know and correct it. I bet you dollars to donuts this Mr. Fisher knew he'd cracked the window, but upon seeing that the trim covered the malady sent it out the door. It's bad enough when an employee knows there is a problem and tries to "button it up and get it out the door" before the boss sees, it's much worse when the boss knows there's a problem and decides to hide it from the customer. I believe there is a good chance that was the case in this instance.

[CDF219]

Your real beef seems be with the mechanic who did the work, but it was 7 months ago. This is an unfortunate situation, and, in my (multiple) experiences not typical of my dealings with AAA

HOWEVER, "keep in mind 7 months and 60 hours ago" makes this more of a grey area.

When ANYONE makes a referral to a mechanic, an avionics shop, an interior shop, or ANY other supplier it does not mean the person making the referral is responsible for the work.

 

I guess my beef is that I paid the money to have to job done and I expected it to be done right. It happens to be that the first freeze is when the problem showed up. I am baffled that there would be no warranty on the mechanics labor. Its not really about the money and if you cant absorb a 500.00 unexpected expense you should not own a plane. I just could have used that money for gas and not be fixing something I did not tear up. The manner in which it was handled was the kicker for me. No im sorry to hear that or anything like that it was just a quick "we didnt install it" Either way I am a little dissapointed and i know you Die Hard AAA lovers will defend them til the end and Im ok with that. I just wanted to let you know my experience. On that note "thank you to whoever called or emailed Jimmy" he has offered to help cover half the cost. Its as important to let you all know that as well.

[Cruiser]

Glad to here Jimmy is involved. Sounds like he values your business.

[carusoam]

Why is acrylic still being used in place of polycarbonate, or other material?

Drilling and installing acrylic sheet has a high potential to crack and propagate. This is the same material as used by Al Mooney himself, at the beginning of the polymer revolution.

Not using the right drill, finishing the hole properly, or over tightening the hardware can be causes of this issue.

Change of temperature on the ground in GA is pretty small compared to flying in winter at 11,000' and acrylic is not very moisture sensitive anyway.

The cost of the material is minimal compared to the install cost.

PC has taken over the plastic window market because of its visibility and impact characteristics.

It's certainly a bummer when a window lets go on you for any reason. But it's technically not very challenging to get it fixed locally , or do yourself (not so for windshield).

Just wondering,

-a-

[rbridges]

 On that note "thank you to whoever called or emailed Jimmy" he has offered to help cover half the cost. Its as important to let you all know that as well.

 

that's good to hear.  

[N601RX]

The trip back to tx would probably cost more than it's worth. Perhaps you can work out something where they provide a replacement window and sealant and you could either put it in yourself or help a local mechanic install it.

 

I replaced all my windows a couple of years ago, Its time consuming, but not really hard work either. The holes need to be drilled with a special or modified drill and the edge where the drill enters and exits the window needs a small 45 on one side and a deeper one on the side the screw goes into. All the edges of the window need to be rounded off with a sanding block so there are no sharp edges for cracks to start in.

[jwilkins]

From your post I gather that you think 7 months and 60hrs is an unreasonable warranty period? Installing windows is not rocket science. What is the point in paying a credentialed mx to do what is supposed to be quality work if they won't back it up? My auto mechanic backs up his work for a year or 30K miles. The reason why I do not frequent large repair stations or A&Ps with a fixed base anymore is for precisely this reason... Lousy customer service. Give me a pickup truck IA that will work with me any day; at least if something goes TU during a repair, I'll know and correct it. I bet you dollars to donuts this Mr. Fisher knew he'd cracked the window, but upon seeing that the trim covered the malady sent it out the door. It's bad enough when an employee knows there is a problem and tries to "button it up and get it out the door" before the boss sees, it's much worse when the boss knows there's a problem and decides to hide it from the customer. I believe there is a good chance that was the case in this instance.

 

I said what I think. You can extrapolate what you want from my comments, but I said what I think. not what you are inferring.

 

Having spent over 35 years in manufacturing and failure analysis, I do not agree with you statement that the "Mr. Fisher knew he'd cracked the window". That is just inflammatory without any data to support the comment.

 

Acrylic propagates cracks from imperfections which are sometimes visible, but also from microfracture stress cracks which are difficult to see even with magnification inspections. Making conjectures about whether the crack was even visible is not helpful to this situation. 

 

I'll not comment any more, so make all the back seat long distance failure analyses you want. 

 

[jgarrison]

 I just wanted to let you know my experience. On that note "thank you to whoever called or emailed Jimmy" he has offered to help cover half the cost. Its as important to let you all know that as well.

 

Nobody called Jimmy.  Jimmy has been flying for two days and then closing a sale today.  Jimmy replied as soon as he had his first opportunity, with a contribution to the repair. If that doesn't work for you, bring the plane back over and I will have Ron replace it at no charge.  I regret that you are not a satisfied client. Good luck to you in the future...   

[jetdriven]

Why is acrylic still being used in place of polycarbonate, or other material?

Drilling and installing acrylic sheet has a high potential to crack and propagate. This is the same material as used by Al Mooney himself, at the beginning of the polymer revolution.

Not using the right drill, finishing the hole properly, or over tightening the hardware can be causes of this issue.

Change of temperature on the ground in GA is pretty small compared to flying in winter at 11,000' and acrylic is not very moisture sensitive anyway.

The cost of the material is minimal compared to the install cost.

PC has taken over the plastic window market because of its visibility and impact characteristics.

It's certainly a bummer when a window lets go on you for any reason. But it's technically not very challenging to get it fixed locally , or do yourself (not so for windshield).

Just wondering,

-a-

 

Same with boats.  Polycarbonate is superior in impact resistance when new, but after a year or two of UV exposure the material is has less strength than acrylic. Replace an acrylic hatch with polycarbonate and 3 years later, you step on it and it falls through.   After 4-5 years it yellows and begins to craze. You can see this in the headlights of newer cars.

[Shadrach]

I don't base my analysis on your assessment or even the OP's. I am speculating based on my own experience spending the last 10 years finding things that were done to my aircraft that should have never left the shop without being remedied.

To name a few:

1) Poorly rigged gear doors after after a nose gear truss swap during an ($8000) annual.

2) Screws left out of instrument mounts (covered by panel trim) after avionics work.

3) Sheet metal screws forced into nut plates designed for machine screws (one of my favorites).

4) Improper length fastener used (sheet metal screw) that went through the fuselage, intentionally hidden (covered with tape on the inside of the cabin wall).

5) Mag timed 180 degrees out of spec (the shop owned up to this one because they had no choice).

6) 3 hrs labor on an invoice to change an exhaust hangar. (shop reduced it to .5 hrs after I offered to show their mechanic how to do it in under an hour).

7) Paint work full of "fish eyes" and so badly color matched that the insurance adjuster told me he would refuse payment (damage from ground incident that was eventually rectified)

8) I have acquired 2 pairs of pliers (safety and needle nose) that shops unknowingly gave me as a bonus after MX.

9) un-torqued fuel injector that nearly stripped out the boss on the cyl from vibration.

10) over tightened B-nuts that cracked the flanges on all 4 injectors.

11) Oil cooler that was obviously dropped which bent and cracked one of the mounting ears (it was bent back with pliers or a vise which likely exacerbated the crack)

12) airplane returned to service with tape over all static ports after a pitot/static test (I new immediately when I began taxiing back to my hangar what had [not] been done ( I removed the tape, and phoned the shop to tell them whoever released the plane was not paying attention).

I could go on, but why bother. Of all of the maintenance induced squawks above, 3 were owned up to by the shops that performed the work. I had to eat the cost to rectify the others. So maybe I'm a bit harsh in not offering the benefit of the doubt when it comes to spontaneous cracking of side windows. My experience tells me to be cynical.

ALL shops have mishaps. With tight margins, I understand the temptation to take a "prove it was my fault" approach, in some cases it's warranted. However, is it unreasonable to have the expectation that a headliner last longer than a year? That window glass last more than 7 months and 60 hrs? I too am directly involved in running a small company. Doing the right thing is always more costly in the short term, but it's less costly in the long term. The problem with sub par shops is that they cannot afford to eat their mistakes because those mistakes are so frequent, so they must pass the cost on to the customer to stay in business.

A few years back I called Don Maxwell to order some Flamemaster for a tank patch. 3 days went by and I had not received the the order or an email with tracking. I called Don back and he admitted that he had lost my order (his office manager was out sick). Knowing from our previous conversation that I was planning on using it for the weekend, he offered to next day air it to me. I insisted on splitting the additional shipping cost. The stuff arrived the next day but the invoice had no shipping charges included. Don paid~ $50 to send me ~$35 worth of tank sealant. That is the kind of accountability that I look for in a shop. That is the kind of accountability I try to provide my customers. Unfortunately, it is not the type of accountability I have come to expect... If I have any excuse at all to spend money at Maxwell Aviation, I will. I think that Don understands customer perception, and it is the reason he conducts business in such a way. That being said, I'm sure you'll find folks that disagree with my assessment.

[rainman]

Just a pirep on Ron Fisher. He was able to diagnose and repair my 231 after both Dugosh and Maxwell passed on the task. His knowledge of all models of Mooneys is very impressive. He did my windows and I've had no problems. Ray

[Shadrach]

Another data point is always good to have. Could you give us a bit more info on the issue and why the others "passed on the task"... 

[kmyfm20s]

I don't base my analysis on your assessment or even the OP's. I am speculating based on my own experience spending the last 10 years finding things that were done to my aircraft that should have never left the shop without being remedied.

To name a few:

1) Poorly rigged gear doors after after a nose gear truss swap during an ($8000) annual.

2) Screws left out of instrument mounts (covered by panel trim) after avionics work.

3) Sheet metal screws forced into nut plates designed for machine screws (one of my favorites).

4) Improper length fastener used (sheet metal screw) that went through the fuselage, intentionally hidden (covered with tape on the inside of the cabin wall).

5) Mag timed 180 degrees out of spec (the shop owned up to this one because they had no choice).

6) 3 hrs labor on an invoice to change an exhaust hangar. (shop reduced it to .5 hrs after I offered to show their mechanic how to do it in under an hour).

7) Paint work full of "fish eyes" and so badly color matched that the insurance adjuster told me he would refuse payment (damage from ground incident that was eventually rectified)

8) I have acquired 2 pairs of pliers (safety and needle nose) that shops unknowingly gave me as a bonus after MX.

9) un-torqued fuel injector that nearly stripped out the boss on the cyl from vibration.

10) over tightened B-nuts that cracked the flanges on all 4 injectors.

11) Oil cooler that was obviously dropped which bent and cracked one of the mounting ears (it was bent back with pliers or a vise which likely exacerbated the crack)

12) airplane returned to service with tape over all static ports after a pitot/static test (I new immediately when I began taxiing back to my hangar what had [not] been done ( I removed the tape, and phoned the shop to tell them whoever released the plane was not paying attention).

I could go on, but why bother. Of all of the maintenance induced squawks above 3 were owned up to by the shops that performed the work. I had to eat the cost to rectify the others. So maybe I'm a bit harsh in not offering the benefit of the doubt when it comes to spontaneous cracking of side windows. My experience tells me to be cynical.

ALL shops have mishaps. With tight margins, I understand the temptation to take a "prove it was my fault" approach, in some cases it's warranted. However, is it unreasonable to have the expectation that a headliner last longer than a year? That window glass last more than 7 months and 60 hrs? I too am directly involved in running a small company. Doing the right thing is always more costly in the short term, but it's less costly in the long term. The problem with sub par shops is that they cannot afford to eat their mistakes because those mistakes are so frequent, so they must pass the cost on to the customer to stay in business.

A few years back I called Don Maxwell to order some Flamemaster for a tank patch. 3 days went by and I had not received the the order or an email with tracking. I called Don back and he admitted that he had lost my order (his office manager was out sick). Knowing from our previous conversation that I was planning on using it for the weekend, he offered to next day air it to me. I insisted on splitting the additional shipping cost. The stuff arrived the next day but the invoice had no shipping charges included. Don paid~ $50 to send me ~$35 worth of tank sealant. That is the kind of accountability that I look for in a shop. That is the kind of accountability I try to provide my customers. Unfortunately, it is not the type of accountability I have come to expect... If I have any excuse at all to spend money at Maxwell Aviation, I will. I think that Don understands customer perception, and it is the reason he conducts business in such a way. That being said, I'm sure you'll find folks that disagree with my assessment.

Well said, I'm in your camp!

[tomn]

I could chime in with a number issues I've had but will resist the temptation to share my list. The bottom line for me is to be sure to check any and all work done by anyone on my plane. I've learned the hard way how many things can be done wrong. Try and learn as much as you can about the repair etc. so you will be able to look it over completely once it is done. Mechanics are human and will make mistakes. Unfortunately, some more than others.

Tom

[Martin H]

WOW!   You really did have a very unfortunate learning experience with aviation purchases.  

 

   Since you posted publically, I'll assume you want responses / feedback or a non-biased After Action Review.   So, here you go:

 

   - BLUF - Caveat Emptor.   YOU didn't have to buy it, use THEIR services, THEIR recommended Mechanic, or go against your gut.

 

   - It SEEMS that You ingnored all information, stories, and personnel which are available on Aviation / Mooney pre-purchase and purchasing Tactics, Techniques and Procedures.   Such as:

 

RULE 1 FOR BUYING - ALWAYS GET A GOOD PRE-PURCHASE!

RULE 2 FOR BUYING - NEVER USE THE SELLER'S MECHANIC OR RECOMMENDED MECHANICS!

RULE 3 FOR BUYING - NEVER ASSUME THE SELLER KNOWS ALL OR TELLS ALL!   HAVE SELLER PROVE EVERYTHING with YOUR choice of experts.

 

   This is not new information and is easily available and found on this wonderful site, as well as just google how to buy a plane, or just ASK someone who bought a plane.   It seems as though you either ignored this relatively common purchasing advice or didn't bother to look.

 

 

   - Now, that said, And the aforementioned IS the Very bottom and unpallitable line:

 

   - Should the shop have helped you more?   Yes.

   - Should they have stood behind their recommendation?   Yes

   - Should the mechanic have fixed the issue when you found it?   Yes

 

   Why should they have done so?   It is good business and good publicity.   MUST THEY do these things?   NO!   Again, NO, they don't need to.

 

 

   Like I have learned in life:

 

   "Good Judgement comes from Experience.

   Experience comes from Bad Judgement."

 

  Hopefully, all is now well with the plane and you are enjoying it!   

 

   Martin

[triple8s]

I could chime in with a number issues I've had but will resist the temptation to share my list. The bottom line for me is to be sure to check any and all work done by anyone on my plane. I've learned the hard way how many things can be done wrong. Try and learn as much as you can about the repair etc. so you will be able to look it over completely once it is done. Mechanics are human and will make mistakes. Unfortunately, some more than others.

Tom

Trust no one not even yourself. That's why we use checklists!

[CDF219]

I just wanted to update this and let you know Jimmy did send a check for a portion of the repairs and the new window is here so Dec 1st it goes in for annual and repairs.

[MTodd]

I just across this thread, so I apologize for the late reply.  However, I am once again in the market for a Mooney, so I just felt I had to respond.  My story is as follows:  way back in 2002, I bought a 1964 Mooney M20E from a total crook in San Antonia named Rich Zephro (now dead).  He completely lied about the plane, and I came to find out later actually made a false annual entry in the logbook, since the plane had actually been out of annual for over a year.  Anyway, I also had a pre-buy inspection completed by Ron Fisher (who Mr. Zephro recommended).  I doubt this guy even looked at the plane.  When I arrived to look at the plane, I saw the left aileron was dented and dinged.  The left elevator was also damaged ("hangar rash" according to Fisher).  However, I had already put a down payment on the plane and since Ron Fisher had said it was airworthy, I felt obliged to proceed.

On the way home, I started to learn of my mistake.  With regard to the avionics, one of the KX170B's did not work, and was actually not even hooked up to the indicator, which I learned when I was flying it home to Oregon.  When I had the annual completed the following year by Tom at Reliant Aviation, he determined it was not airworthy.  Ater repairing the damage to control surfaces, Tom also found that the plane had suffered a tail strike such that the entire tail assembly needed work.  All-in-all, I was out some $15K in repairs.

Now, I don't know anything about All American Aircraft, but if they are anything like Rich Zephro (who again, did business in the same town), I would stay clear of them.  And, for Ron Fisher, this guy should have his A&P license revoked.  Absolutely do not buy anything this guy has looked at and stay away from anyone who recommends him.  Buyer beware!

[DonMuncy]

Just now, MTodd said:

Now, I don't know anything about All American Aircraft, but if they are anything like Rich Zephro (who again, did business in the same town), I would stay clear of them.  

Because they do business in the same town, you assume AA may be crooked?  I know you included an "if", but someone with no knowledge reading this might see that as a negative to AA.

Read the threads about All American and you will see they are not at all like the broker you dealt with.