Buying a Ovation or Bravo with G1000 Non WAAS?

[Fix]

Hi all,

Is it crazy to buy an Ovation or Bravo with G1000 Non WA AS ?

Been looking on a Bravo for awhile with G1000 and GIA62 (non waas), and no ADS-B Out.
Engine at ~1200h with some top overhaul some years back.
I know you can find the GIA63W modules, and install them.
Prop and Gov is time for overhaul.

Price wise it's not the low and with added costs for GIA63W and Prop/Gov it will be expensive.

Question is, is a G1000 a No Go ?

/Patrik

 

[hubcap]

I believe there are still a few upgrades for the G1000 available.

The upgrade cost isn't cheap, but who wants to fly without WAAS?

[Danb]

It’s my understanding that Paul has some units in stock, I’d work the best deal I could make and have DMAX keep one for you. You’d want to get a discount of $50k or so.

 

[MatthiasArnold]

Hey Patrik,

I'm very happy with my G1000 equipped Ovation 2GX.

Since you are based in Sweden, Europe I assume that most of your flying will take place there.
Based on this assumption:

• G1000 WAAS upgrade with used GIA63W units is doable. Take care of the HW revision! You will find all required information here on MS.
• Since advanced NextGen ADS-B services like weather, .. are not available in Europe, upgrading to ADS-B out can be achieved by simply exchanging the GTX33 to GTX33ES (and some SW configuration. AFAIK this upgrade mandates WAAS (for feeding the position information to the GTX).
• For traffic information you could utilize a system like AirAvionics AT1; targets can be fed to the MFD. By combining AT1 and GTX33ES you achive
  • Traffic in via ADS-B (AT1)
  • Traffic in via FLARM (AT1, all those gliders)
  • Traffic out via FLARM with antenna diversity (AT1, the gliders can see you, maybe to late)
  • Traffic out via ADS-B out (GTX33ES)

While G1000 WAAS upgrade is not so hard, there currently seems to be no (affordable) upgrade path from S-TEC 55 X to GFC700.
If you find a plane with GFC700 you might take a closer look (I don't think that there are any Bravo's with GFC700..).

Best,

Matthias

[Cruiser]

IF you fly IFR and if you only fly into airports with ILS approaches you don't need WAAS. 

[GeeBee]

28 minutes ago, Cruiser said:

IF you fly IFR and if you only fly into airports with ILS approaches you don't need WAAS. 

There is more than approaches. Your choice of alternates can also be affected.

[Schllc]

I have done the upgrade on a few planes. It isn’t that difficult from the install perspective. It’s mostly software configuration. If you don’t already have adsb out, it may require an additional antenna. 
you can find the boxes in salvage or I. eBay periodically and that can save you money.  
Maxwell’s is the best place to have the work done. Paul really knows his stuff and makes it a lot easier than the other shops I used for the others. 
Maxwell’s often has the boxes, albeit at a premium. 
I don’t know why there is no east path to the gfc700 for those planes. 

I assume it’s mooneys unwillingness/inability to make a path. At least that’s what Garmin tells me. 

[Pinecone]

16 hours ago, GeeBee said:

There is more than approaches. Your choice of alternates can also be affected.

Is that true in Europe?

In the US, I would not want a non-WAAS aircraft.

[GeeBee]

It is an ICAO guideline so for those nations who follow ICAO, yes.

[Cruiser]

what happens when Garmin stops supporting the G1000 ? 

 

[Niko182]

A bravo that was not originally a TLS with a top overhaul would make me want to check that engine out. The lycoming 540 on the bravo is supposed to be pretty robust as far as the top end of that engine goes.

When I got my Eagle, I originally wanted a 2GX. Having passed that point, I don’t regret my choice of going with a non g1000 airframe. Cost wise, the cost to add a GFC500 and a gtn750 with a G3X will be cheaper than buying a G1000 ovation/bravo, and you’ll have the GFC autopilot instead of the stec 55 and you’ll have waas.

[Alan Maurer]

Hej Partik, I have had an Ovation 2 with a G1000 and integrated Garmin 700 autopilot and WAAS for four years. It is a very capable instrument 

airplane if you can find one in Sweden  (or the USA) For flying in Swedish winter type weather your will appreciate it. 

Usually at around 1000 hours of total time. on the engine, many airplanes get a top (new cylinders) . In any event any considered purchase

should include a boroscope of the cylinders and a complete inspection. I would not be in favor of flying in the. USA without WAAS. 

It should be just as useful in Sweden. Hopefully Garmin will continue support of the G1000. There are loads of them!

MVH

Alan

[BravoWhiskey]

I’ve had my non WAAS Bravo for about 2 years now.  Haven’t had any issues, but I think it might depend on your mission.  In my case, my typical business mission takes me into class D and C airports which usually have ILS.  My home base doesn’t have LP or ILS but the nearby D does, so that’s my alternate.  ILS and LP minimums are also below mine so I am not as concerned with that aspect.  I have not yet experienced a RAIM outage that impacted my flight.  Things that were more important to me were FIKI, weather and traffic… all of which have come in so incredibly useful.  If I find the WAAS upgrade I’ll probably do it but it is not a priority for me.  
I evaluated all of these before making the decision to buy.  
If you are looking at a Bravo with engine concerns be prepared to drop big money and lots of downtime.  Engine overhaul and prop replacement cost me 9 months.  Exhaust 2 months alternator 2 months… I hold the field record for AOG time.  

[William Munney]

WAAS is part of the “future air navigation system” (FANS).  As ground based navaids and ILS systems disappear it will become even more important.

Non- WAAS airplanes, even ones with fancy panels, are slowly becoming obsolete.  The fleet is currently in this transition period.  It doesn’t mean that you can’t enjoy a non-WAAS airplane just as much for now but if you are using the airplane to travel here and there in all types of weather and you are planning on keeping it, you will meet the non-WAAS limits at some time.  

 

 

[Fix]

Is it dumb to buy an aircraft with an G1000 legacy or better to take the Upgrade route if Garmin drops support for G1000 ?
That's also another interesting question.

 

 

[KSMooniac]

15 minutes ago, Fix said:

Is it dumb to buy an aircraft with an G1000 legacy or better to take the Upgrade route if Garmin drops support for G1000 ?
That's also another interesting question.

 

 

It's interesting because nobody knows what the options will be for G1000 Mooneys when Garmin drops support of the system.  The installation is actually owned/controlled by Mooney, and right now, they don't have the resources to engineer an upgrade path.  There will be salvage bits available, but do we know if you can take a screen or LRU from a 172 and install it in a Mooney, without Mooney needing to do something to it?  Or Garmin?  I imagine the GPS and COM units are probably swapable, but other parts are likely not.

[LANCECASPER]

24 minutes ago, Fix said:

Is it dumb to buy an aircraft with an G1000 legacy or better to take the Upgrade route if Garmin drops support for G1000 ?
That's also another interesting question.

If the G1000 airplane you buy doesn’t have WAAS, the only upgrade route is to find two GIA-63W units (-01 or -20) and have an expert perform the upgrade.  There is no other upgrade route currently.

The screens are interchangeable with some other airframes.
 

 

[MatthiasArnold]

AFAIK all LRUs (Line Replacable Units) are independent of a specific airframe (LRU revisions have to be considers)

[Fix]

So when Garmin drops support for G1000, then only old stock from other Mooney is the only option.

Else I like G1000 setup, but since it's lots of money to buy an aircraft you want to be able to sell it in future too.

 

[GeeBee]

There are thousands of Cessnas, Beechcrafts, Cirrus, Kodiak, and Pipers with G1000. Support is not ending for a long, long time.

[Pinecone]

5 hours ago, GeeBee said:

There are thousands of Cessnas, Beechcrafts, Cirrus, Kodiak, and Pipers with G1000. Support is not ending for a long, long time.

This

[Cruiser]

it would seem the only upgrade path from Garmin would be the G2000... and Mooney is not currently approved. 

what would it take to build a completely new panel with the G500Txi/EIS GFC500 GTN750Xi etc. -- this would much more desirable anyway. 

[Fly Boomer]

34 minutes ago, Cruiser said:

it would seem the only upgrade path from Garmin would be the G2000... and Mooney is not currently approved. 

what would it take to build a completely new panel with the G500Txi/EIS GFC500 GTN750Xi etc. -- this would much more desirable anyway. 

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I thought swapping out the panel was a non-starter because the (integrated) G1000 is written into the Type Certificate?

[Schllc]

9 hours ago, Cruiser said:

it would seem the only upgrade path from Garmin would be the G2000... and Mooney is not currently approved.

 

The g1000nxi is already certified in the ultra so the logical and economical step is for them to clear that path.  Just like Cessna, and beech have done.

if Mooney closes for good it will happen because garmin can do it, and there are enough planes out there to make it worth the expense.  Or Mooney can do it which they have shown zero appetite for in spite of what they could earn  there has been speculation that they still owe Garmin money so that may be the hurdle.  
It will happen eventually.

 

 

[midlifeflyer]

Personally, based on what I've seen and read of the G1000 history with Mooneys, Bonanzas, and Diamonds,  with just about anything other than a Cirrus or Cessna, I'd look seriously at the economics and viability of replacing the G1000 with something that does not require airframe manufacturer consent for every update and upgrade.