Dual Surefly Ignition Systems?

[MisfitSELF]

I read recently that Surefly got an STC for dual SIM installation as long as your aircraft has a second or backup power bus or battery.  I currently own a 1984 M20J and with one Surefly SIM installed.  Has anybody yet upgraded their "single power bus" aircraft to dual electronic ignition yet?  If so, how did you or what did you do to add the backup power?

I'm just toying with the idea of getting rid of the second mag at present as there are pros/cons to either approach.

Thanks,

Bruce

[A64Pilot]

If they have it, and you want it, I’d contact them, because I’m pretty sure that would be an STC, and the details of what exactly you have to do should be in the STC.

 

[MisfitSELF]

8 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

If they have it, and you want it, I’d contact them, because I’m pretty sure that would be an STC, and the details of what exactly you have to do should be in the STC.

 

I wish I kept the email now.  My problem was that the "press release" about the STC was very vague on how to comply with the "second" or back up power bus requirement.  And, now I can't find anything about it on the Surefly web page.  Did I imagine this?  I was curious if someone knew more or has actually done this on a Mooney to install two SIMs or dual ignition system and can illuminate me on what was involved.

Bruce

[Pinecone]

I have seen on other forums that the second one can be a smallish battery pack.  There is one that is allowed for aircraft install for this or for avionics back up.

Probably easiest to call SureFly

 

[Ragsf15e]

22 hours ago, MisfitSELF said:

I read recently that Surefly got an STC for dual SIM installation as long as your aircraft has a second or backup power bus or battery.  I currently own a 1984 M20J and with one Surefly SIM installed.  Has anybody yet upgraded their "single power bus" aircraft to dual electronic ignition yet?  If so, how did you or what did you do to add the backup power?

I'm just toying with the idea of getting rid of the second mag at present as there are pros/cons to either approach.

Thanks,

Bruce

I thought it was electroair that got theirs approved to replace a dual mag as long as it had a backup battery or second alternator.  Maybe SF was working on it and maybe they can do it for experimental but I haven’t heard of an stc for a second one.

[A64Pilot]

Normally there is a second battery, possibly a second alternator could be allowed, depends on the STC.

This battery would need to have what in the boating world is called a battery isolator or automatic charge relay, that ties it in for charging but the instant charging goes away the battery is isolated for essential loads. If you didn’t isolate it then it would feed the whole electric system and you don’t want that, you only want it feeding the mag it’s supposed to.

An example is in the link below, a specific device may be listed in the STC, I’m not saying a boat ACR would be allowed, again it may depend on the STC

https://www.bluesea.com/support/articles/58/Battery_Isolators_and_Automatic_Charging_Relays

IF and this is a pretty big if, but if this is allowed it wouldn’t be that bad work and money wise.

However the STC could require a separate emergency bus, and depending on STC requirements that could be a lot more difficult, also I’d expect the STC could specify a particular battery and possibly a set battery box for it, or it could just specify voltage an AH.

‘In other words I think without the STC it’s all speculation, I’d give them a call and ask, and ask for a link to the STC.

Edited July 18, 2023 by A64Pilot

[McMooney]

when i first got my surefly, there was a blurb about possibly having a second using a dedicated tcw battery.

Doesn't lycoming also have a sim stc?

 

[Ragsf15e]

33 minutes ago, McMooney said:

when i first got my surefly, there was a blurb about possibly having a second using a dedicated tcw battery.

Doesn't lycoming also have a sim stc?

 

They do… it’s a rebranded SF.

[Austintatious]

I just got off the phone with them... They will be making the announcement at Oshkosh.

You will need a second battery.... So they have some manufacturers that sell certified backup batteries to refer those who dont have a second ship battery.

I already have 1 emag  on one of my airplanes and a second E mag sitting in the box... there will be nothing to purchase and I can just run a direct wire from the 2nd batt to the second Emag and bee good to go.

[Austintatious]

30 minutes ago, Evan said:

Do you have to have a readout of the second battery? That was a requirement for the battery backup for my EA.

oof, She didnt say. 

[toto]

On 7/18/2023 at 10:22 AM, Ragsf15e said:

I thought it was electroair that got theirs approved to replace a dual mag as long as it had a backup battery or second alternator.  Maybe SF was working on it and maybe they can do it for experimental but I haven’t heard of an stc for a second one.

Wait are we talking about a dual-mag (Bendix D2000/3000) replacement? I thought OP was just talking about replacing both mags in a separate mag setup. 

The Electroair is the only option for the Bendix dual mag afaik, but would be very interested to learn more if this is a second option for a dual mag replacement. 

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, toto said:

Wait are we talking about a dual-mag (Bendix D2000/3000) replacement? I thought OP was just talking about replacing both mags in a separate mag setup. 

The Electroair is the only option for the Bendix dual mag afaik, but would be very interested to learn more if this is a second option for a dual mag replacement. 

Yeah he’s talking about two separate mags.  I was just trying to say that the electroair one was the only one currently approved to replace “both” mags - the dual mag.

[McMooney]

If true, i'll def be going dual, Thing has been one of my best upgrades.   will probably add the electroaire switch this time

[KSMooniac]

Electroair was finally able to break down the door that prevented dual electronic igntions.  Their first design on the D2000/3000 replacement was a hybrid on the single drive point (one mag, one EI), but during the course of that development they decided to go for the home run instead.  This set them back years, but they finally got it approved.  Their thought (when I visited at OSH in '21) was that they considered the dual EI a much better solution and set that as the goal, but to do it first on the D2000/3000 application since there was no other solution in the market.  They figured (correctly) that getting that approval would unlock the approvals for true dual/separate EI on all of the other engines.  It would not surprise me that Surefly is now going down the same road.

As Evan already mentioned, for most of us with single alternators and single ship batteries, we can use the small TCW backup battery that is added solely to support the EI in the event of a ship electrical failure.  This gives true dual redundancy with that D3000 replacement system:  Dual ignition, dual power source (TCW + ship batteries), and dual trigger/timing inputs (conventional accessory case gear and additional prop/starter ring trigger).  

[Austintatious]

16 hours ago, McMooney said:

If true, i'll def be going dual, Thing has been one of my best upgrades.   will probably add the electroaire switch this time

Hehe we are going to do the same... stupid keys dont belong in airplanes!

[Austintatious]

Did anyone see https://www.surefly.aero/

 

SureFly has amended both Engine and Airframe STC's to allow for the installation of two SIM's on an engine.

 

Engine and Airframe installation instructions have been revised to add guidance on how to power the 2nd SIM on an engine.

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Austintatious

[Cabanaboy]

I do not have hardly any facts but i just called Surefly and she asked what engine(IO-360-A3-B3D) and she says their system wont work because its a "single drive duel mag" system. What yall think? What about ElectroAir system? do those work with that engine? My actual mag is model number D4LN-3000

https://smoothpowerllc.com/4-cylinder-ignition-kits/

[toto]

4 minutes ago, Cabanaboy said:

I do not have hardly any facts but i just called Surefly and she asked what engine(IO-360-A3-B3D) and she says their system wont work because its a "single drive duel mag" system. What yall think? What about ElectroAir system? do those work with that engine? My actual mag is part number D4LN-3000

 

Electroair is the only company with an STC for the single drive dual mag.

[Cabanaboy]

On 8/2/2023 at 1:41 PM, toto said:

Electroair is the only company with an STC for the single drive dual mag.

Anyone interested in Electroair Mag Conversion here is letter from supplier Smooth Power LLC and whats involved :

Yes, Electroair now has a solution for the single drive Bendix dual magneto. The old magneto gets removed and actually returned to Electroair as there is a $1,000.00 core charge which you will get back when they receive it. Electroair wants to get these magnetos off the market.

The equipment consists of the EIS-42000DM which is actually two ignition kits, an EIS-41000 and an EIS-41000IC. One kit used a crankshaft trigger wheel to produce the timing signal and the other kit used what we call a mag timing housing, replaces the old magneto, to create the timing signal. The kits also include two controllers, brain boxes, and two large inductive coils, spark plug wires and hardware and the master wiring harness. In addition you will also need the EA-23000 ignition switch panel in either the horizontal or vertical configuration. This switch replaces your current rotary key switch which will not work well with the Electroair ignition. You will also need the EA-26000-(12 or24) battery condition panel which is how you the operator knows what is going on with your ignition systems and battery before, during and after flight. You will also need eight high energy spark plugs, unless you have either 37BY or 40s or 38S plugs installed. These are the only standard spark plugs that can potentially have the electrode gaps opened up enough for the high energy ignition. Electroair does have their own line of high energy spark plugs which are manufactured to their specifications by Tempest.

Last but not least you will need either a backup battery system, which we also distribute, which is produced by TCW Technologies. There have been a couple of folks who have received field approvals on the M20J to install the B&C Specialties standy by alternators. We do not distribute the alternators.

If you have any questions or would like pricing just let me know. Feel free to call me at 281-728-8732 any time before 5 central.

https://www.tcwtech.com/product/integrated-battery-back-up-system-ibbs/

https://www.aviationconsumer.com/accessories/standby-alternators-availability-increasing/

[Shadrach]

On 7/19/2023 at 10:27 PM, Ragsf15e said:

Yeah he’s talking about two separate mags.  I was just trying to say that the electroair one was the only one currently approved to replace “both” mags - the dual mag.

As I read it, only the "D" engines are approved for dual electronic ignitions. So does this mean that J models with "D" series engines are the only Mooneys that can have variable ignition timing on both left and right ignition sources?

[McMooney]

Just found out this is really a thing, next Mag service i'm going dual 8).

really happy with the surefly purchase.  

[MisfitSELF]

OP here.  At the risk of hi-jacking my own thread -- last night while night flying, my alternator fell offline.  I had the "HI LO VOLTS" light annunciate and my battery started draining.  Luckily it reset with the master switch cycle.  But it got me thinking about whether I'd want to go the dual electronic ignition route just yet.  If there is a discussion on this on Mooney space please link it here rather than completely go down that rabbit hole in this thread.

 

Thanks to Austintatious for posting the link to Surefly's latest info on this topic.  I'll be sure to read the airframe STC instructions.  Also, good info posted above for those who have the "D" engines (mine is the IO-360-A3B6 (w/o the "D").

 

Bruce

[KSMooniac]

Part of the STC requirements for going dual electronic ignition is to have redundancy on the power source, just to cover your alternator (or ship battery) taking a vacation. For the siamese mag replacement in my case, that meant a new, separate backup battery that is only wired to the ignition, and a status panel.  Eventually I'd like to add the B&C alternator after I ditch the vacuum system for even better backup.

[toto]

9 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

new, separate backup battery that is only wired to the ignition, and a status panel

Out of curiosity, how long does that separate backup battery last if the alternator goes south?

[aviatoreb]

I can't find something that I found previously - it was something like that one emag gets you to something like 85% of the benefit that would be two emags.

is that right?

I am trying to understand if it is worth it to think of getting a second?