can battery minder damage anything?

[dominikos]

Reading about the benefits of battery minder, got myself one. Left it connected directly to the battery for a few weeks and went to take a plane for a flight today. On my Dynon, battery read low (11.9V) and was showing negative charging (-27A). Never got fixed in a short flight around the field.

The battery is Concord, batteryminder is 12V-8A CEC2. I don't have a separate connector for battery charging (will add) so had it connected directly to the battery terminals.

Appreciate pointers if anybody run into this before. If it helps, this is what's preceding the battery. My theory is that either it somehow damaged relay or the connector to battery got loose. 

 

[EricJ]

The minder shouldn't damage anything itself.  There are probably installation errors or other faults that can cause trouble, though.

[201Steve]

I apologize in advance bc this doesn’t apply to your issue at all but I feel compelled to contribute this. I may change my view on this at some point, but my last Concorde battery lasted 4.5 years and I never once charged it, jumped it, etc. Max length between flights probably 4-5 weeks. This leads me to believe everyone fiddling with battery minders are just wasting time and money. If your legs of disuse are longer I can see the utility, but if you otherwise get max battery life without yet another thing to do/buy… seems like silly Mx to get an extra 6 months over the span of 5 years. 
 

 

[dominikos]

13 minutes ago, 201Steve said:

I apologize in advance bc this doesn’t apply to your issue at all but I feel compelled to contribute this. I may change my view on this at some point, but my last Concorde battery lasted 4.5 years and I never once charged it, jumped it, etc. Max length between flights probably 4-5 weeks. This leads me to believe everyone fiddling with battery minders are just wasting time and money. If your legs of disuse are longer I can see the utility, but if you otherwise get max battery life without yet another thing to do/buy… seems like silly Mx to get an extra 6 months over the span of 5 years. 
 

 

Valid point... My battery is probably reaching 4 years (need to check the logs). For now, feels like adding battery minder actually might have caused an issue, but we will see. 

[Jim Peace]

I changed out my concord battery after about 7 years, maybe more without ever using a minder. Sometimes 3 weeks between trips, sometimes many starts in a day with short flights. I changed out my battery about a year ago to a new one just because. 
 

I never once used a minder. My friends who use them have issues. I get my 200 dollar hamburger with no problems.  
 

plane has never really lived in a cold climate though. Not sure if that has anything to do with it. 
 

I really don’t draw any amps during flight. LED exterior lighting and new avionics. So I guess the highest amp usage is the sky tech starter. 

[Danb]

Those with electronic ignition use a minder?

[hammdo]

Yep, my SureFly has a fuse so it will blow if something goes wrong…

-Don

[EricJ]

The battery manufacturers recommend using a minder, partly for the desulfating function.

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

Where you live makes a big difference, obviously.  We regularly get 40-below temperatures and cannot fly for several weeks at a time.  My latest battery is going on 7 years, using a battery minder.  When I did not use one, 2-3 years was the max.

[Ragsf15e]

I leave mine connected to a battery minder any time it’s in my hangar.  It’s wired to their special connector, connected directly to the battery.  The connector is run into the baggage area near the hatch so it’s easy to hook up.  Never had an issue.

What did the lights on the minder show when you hooked it up?  It gives you a basic indication.  Also, -27 amps sounds like it wasn’t charging… like your alternator wasn’t on yet?

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, dominikos said:

Reading about the benefits of battery minder, got myself one. Left it connected directly to the battery for a few weeks and went to take a plane for a flight today. On my Dynon, battery read low (11.9V) and was showing negative charging (-27A). Never got fixed in a short flight around the field.

The battery is Concord, batteryminder is 12V-8A CEC2. I don't have a separate connector for battery charging (will add) so had it connected directly to the battery terminals.

Appreciate pointers if anybody run into this before. If it helps, this is what's preceding the battery. My theory is that either it somehow damaged relay or the connector to battery got loose. 

 

Reading this again this sounds like an alternator/charging issue rather than a battery issue.  Regardless of what the minder did, it won't affect what happens after starting.   If the battery isn't charging while the engine is running, that doesn't have anything to do with the minder.

[chriscalandro]

Your alternator isn’t charging the system. Look at that. 

[0TreeLemur]

4 hours ago, dominikos said:

Reading about the benefits of battery minder, got myself one. Left it connected directly to the battery for a few weeks and went to take a plane for a flight today. On my Dynon, battery read low (11.9V) and was showing negative charging (-27A). Never got fixed in a short flight around the field.

The battery is Concord, batteryminder is 12V-8A CEC2. I don't have a separate connector for battery charging (will add) so had it connected directly to the battery terminals.

Appreciate pointers if anybody run into this before. If it helps, this is what's preceding the battery. My theory is that either it somehow damaged relay or the connector to battery got loose. 

 

Probably unrelated to your issue, but Looking at this photo, there is some significant corrosion on that larger right-hand side terminal.   The terminals could use a good cleaning.  Had do to that on my C and my friend's C, when each developed starting problems.  In both cases we disassembled each connection one-by-one, wire brushed them, applied a thin coat of dielectric grease and reassembled.

I agree with @EricJ.  The battery minder should not harm a battery.   Once charged, they go into a de-sulfating mode, which counteracts a tendency that lead-acid batteries have to develop sulfate crystals over time that reduce charge capacity.

If your battery is 4 years old, it's getting up to MTBF.  It might be that somehow the de-sulfating mode of the minder has somehow made your "getting old" battery act up.  Just guessing here.

Not a <fill in the blank>, just a rank PPSEL-IR

-f-

 

[Hector]

This also sounded to me like an alternator issue. I would check the alternator and voltage regulator to make sure they are working.


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[Beard]

I have the exact same set up as you in my 84 J. Same battery and Batteryminder. I have pigtail from the battery that goes in to the luggage compartment that I plug my Batteryminder into. I have had no problems at all.

As one commenter wrote, I sometimes wonder if I got caught up in getting the Batteryminder craze and would have been just as well served by doing nothing. I try to fly every week so the battery should not go flat..

[Greg Ellis]

This may not matter but the original post mentioned he had a Battery Minder 12V-8A-CEC2 and has a Concorde battery.  There are three types of Battery Minders with this designation.  There is the 128CEC2-AA-S5 which is specific for Concorde Batteries and the 128CEC2-AA-S2 which is specific for Gill batteries.  There is also the 128CEC2-AA-S3 which is specific for Hawker Odyssey batteries.  I am not sure how important it is to use the correct one for the application, but it must be for Battery Minder to develop three different units depending on the battery model.

With that being said, it does sound like what others have said and there is a charging issue after the airplane is started.

[Will.iam]

I have a surefly on my engine that like the clock, will slowly over time discharge the battery so it is easier to plug in a battery tender than to pull the circuit breaker for the surefly when the airplane sits for a weeks at a time. Also when it gets below freezing in the winter batteries handle the cold much better fully charged than when they are low. 

[A64Pilot]

Battery minder won’t hurt anything, Concorde heavily recommends them, and yes it’s because of sulphation. But special de-sulphators are snake oil, batteries sulphate from age and if left with less than a full charge they sulphate faster, if there was some magic de-sulphator, then batteries would last for decades, but keeping a battery at float voltage slows sulphation and will extend its life.

‘Concorde has an excellent yearly class given for IA renewal, I’m sure it’s on the internet somewhere.

But battery minders aren’t necessary, and once in a blue moon one catches fire, if your paranoid and still want one put it in a clay pot or pyrex bowl, not in the airplane, I believe it’s not uncommon for some airports to not allow them in their hangars.

Anything that draws power when the Master is off must from memory have a fuse or other circuit protective device within 1 ft of the battery, a CB on the panel doesn’t meet that requirement.

Why would ignition require “keep alive” power?

I have I think 5 battery minders in my hangar now, I’m a believer

[Hank]

I installed my first Concorde in late 2008 (?), living along the Ohio River in WV--hot in summer, COLD for way too long in the winter. Moved to Sweet Home and brought the Mooney down in April 2014, replaced the battery in September 2016. Concorde #3 went in the week before Christmas 2022. To me, thats pretty good life in both climates. Don't own and never used any sort of battery minder . . . .

[A64Pilot]

On 2/14/2023 at 7:16 AM, Greg Ellis said:

This may not matter but the original post mentioned he had a Battery Minder 12V-8A-CEC2 and has a Concorde battery.  There are three types of Battery Minders with this designation.  There is the 128CEC2-AA-S5 which is specific for Concorde Batteries and the 128CEC2-AA-S2 which is specific for Gill batteries.  There is also the 128CEC2-AA-S3 which is specific for Hawker Odyssey batteries.  I am not sure how important it is to use the correct one for the application, but it must be for Battery Minder to develop three different units depending on the battery model.

With that being said, it does sound like what others have said and there is a charging issue after the airplane is started.

A battery charger should be three stage, meaning it has two separate charge voltages, absorption is higher and it’s the actual charge portion, then you have float voltage, that the voltage to store a battery at, these voltages are slightly different by types and manufacturers, so if your going to buy a charger may as well get one that has the correct voltages.

Concorde’s voltages are 

The recommended voltage settings at room temperature are 14.125 ± 0.125 (28.25 ± 0.25V for 24-volt batteries) in bulk and absorb stages and 13.2-13.4V (26.4-26.8V for 24-volt batteries) in float stage.

I believe a battery tender plus 1.25 amp is within those voltages and is what I’ve used for a long time

[RobertGary1]

I’m not a fan of using trickle chargers long term. If my battery doesn’t hold a charge over night I don’t want to find out when I’m away from home on a Sunday night trying to do a call out with the fbo. As your starter gets whimper each morning you know it’s time to start looking for a battery 

[carusoam]

BatteryMinder and Concorde go the distance…

But, the battery does start to lose full capacity somewhere before six years… important for IMC flights…

Minder or not… the battery stops holding a charge after six years or so…

On a two battery system… the #1 battery is connected to the keep alive/kill the battery when things are left plugged in, or lights left on…

Four years would be the equivalent of sudden infant death… sort of… or having a heart attack in your mid forties….

 

Soooo…

Back to finding the real culprit…

1) a handy digital volt meter will tell how well the alternator/ charging system is working… plugs in the Liter socket…

2) Cleaning up all that oxidation showing on the battery post is quite important… hot water, sanding, battery grease were invented for a reason…

3) take battery to the charger… charge it up….

4) If it holds the charge for a day or two… that is a good sign…

5) If it doesn’t charge at 14V, and read over 12V when disconnected… the battery is showing signs of age… or wear….

6) Concorde has a nice booklet or two that gives great details… available on their site as well….

7) in the hangar, in the mid Atlantic… the #1 battery will drain pretty low at the end of the month…

8) +1 for reading the LED lights on the front of the BatteryMinder… they tell a lot!

9) The good news… the BM is thoughtful… if something isn’t working right… it probably isn’t the BM…

10) don’t look at new battery prices until you have to… they could give you a heart attack before your time….

11) if all this brings you down…  having a pair of Concordes croak on a schedule is a bit of a drag…. 

12) The best I got out of the competitor was only two years… so 4+ years is way ahead of that other battery brand…

13) Concorde is actually the primary recommendation in the O’s Maintenance/parts manual…. Gill is listed as an alternative.

14) I bought the Gill specific battery charger from Gill… their batteries croak with or without the battery charger…

15) Flying weekly, parked outside… I never charged the battery… always had Gill, always replaced every two years…

16) Capacity of Gill batteries must drop off before the two year mark…

17) Weak batteries become obvious when they can’t power the relays… you may just hear a buzz coming from the relay instead of a thunk…. And they fail to their NC/NO status….

 

PP thoughts only, I not a big battery fan…

Best regards,

-a-

[chan65]

On 2/12/2023 at 9:02 PM, Ragsf15e said:

I leave mine connected to a battery minder any time it’s in my hangar.  It’s wired to their special connector, connected directly to the battery.  The connector is run into the baggage area near the hatch so it’s easy to hook up.  Never had an issue.

What did the lights on the minder show when you hooked it up?  It gives you a basic indication.  Also, -27 amps sounds like it wasn’t charging… like your alternator wasn’t on yet?

same for 5 years, no issues, battery always healthy and ready

 

[rbridges]

This thread made me look up my emails.  My battery was purchased 5/2018.  I feel like I may have jinxed it, but it's working well.  I keep it hooked up to a simple 12v battery minder.

[Fly Boomer]

28 minutes ago, rbridges said:

This thread made me look up my emails.  My battery was purchased 5/2018.  I feel like I may have jinxed it, but it's working well.  I keep it hooked up to a simple 12v battery minder.

Are you using the one designed for your battery?