Aircraft jacking using a weighted tail stand Vs using a cable winch

[MooneyMitch]

Having been in the Mooney world for a lot of years, I guess my head has been in the sand regarding all the damage done over the many, many years to Mooney aircraft from using the tail hook in holding down the plane for jacking.......................

 

[Jpravi8tor]

I think @DaV8or found the answer

[Ron McBride]

If you are chaining the tail to ground to lift the plane, what keeps the tail off of the ground when the cg is changed.   Climbing on the wing, removal of the prop etc.  

 

[N201MKTurbo]

Maybe if we could get people to post pictures of all the tail damage caused by jacking with the tail tied down, we could put this to bed forever.

[N201MKTurbo]

2 minutes ago, Ron McBride said:

If you are chaining the tail to ground to lift the plane, what keeps the tail off of the ground when the cg is changed.   Climbing on the wing, removal of the prop etc.  

 

I actually have a metal tube for that. I last used it to jack the airplane with no engine.

[MooneyMitch]

2 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Maybe if we could get people to post pictures of all the tail damage caused by jacking with the tail tied down, we could put this to bed forever.

NEVER...................some Mooney myths just keep on keepin on!

[MooneyMitch]

5 minutes ago, Jpravi8tor said:

I think @DaV8or found the answer

I do like this too!! 

[MooneyMitch]

Of course, my favorite is the nose area jacking point on the long bodies! 

[PT20J]

7 minutes ago, Ron McBride said:

If you are chaining the tail to ground to lift the plane, what keeps the tail off of the ground when the cg is changed.   Climbing on the wing, removal of the prop etc.  

 

Good question. It turns out that the CG doesn't change that much by my climbing on the wing. I know this because the tail weight doesn't clamp the tiedown but just has a slot in the vertical pipe so that the  tiedown goes through the slot and a bolt goes through holes in the pipe to capture the tiedown. So, the plane could tip backward if enough weight were placed aft of the CG but this doesn't happen when I climb up on the wing to enter the cockpit to access the controls for the gear swing. 

Skip

[N201MKTurbo]

2 minutes ago, MooneyMitch said:

Of course, my favorite is the nose area jacking point on the long bodies! 

With my tail chained down, sometimes when I climb onto the wing the chain goes a little slack and then taught again. If we had a jackpoint up front that would be the nose rising off the jack and falling back onto it. That sounds real scary to me. If I had a long body, I would still put a safety chain on the tail just in case.

[Raymond J1]

3 hours ago, Ron McBride said:

If you are chaining the tail to ground to lift the plane, what keeps the tail off of the ground when the cg is changed.   Climbing on the wing, removal of the prop etc.  

 

The water barrel supports the forces in both directions.

[skykrawler]

11 hours ago, PT20J said:

On mine it was 639 lbs on the nose, 788 on the left main, 800 on the right main, with full fuel.

Hmmm,  I recently had the engine off and had to put a stand under the tail to keep the nose wheel touching the ground.

[PT20J]

39 minutes ago, skykrawler said:

Hmmm,  I recently had the engine off and had to put a stand under the tail to keep the nose wheel touching the ground.

And your point is...? 

[Guest]

Be thankful you don’t have to jack up any of the Cessna single retracts, 24-26” to clear the floor, or ceiling in this case, damn iPad.

[47U]

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

to clear the floor, or ceiling in this case

[Shadrach]

On 11/6/2022 at 6:25 AM, skykrawler said:

I don't think the force required to lift the nose by the engine strap is is anywhere near the weight of the engine itself.

Yeah, it’s quite a bit more.

[Kelpro999]

  I use sealed lead bars on top of the horizontal spar and tail weight at same time along with a telescoping perforated tube that “pins” the tail eye  at any height from the lead bar weighted plate on the floor.

[Kelpro999]

[Jsno]

On 11/5/2022 at 9:12 PM, PT20J said:

Every shop I know uses a tail weight except Don Maxwell who uses a couple of old alternator belts around the prop blade shanks and an engine hoist. Mooney's suggestion to use the lifting eye on the engine is absolutely against Lycoming recommendations and if you look at the amount of metal in the crankcase at that point it doesn't seem a good idea. But then, that same service bulletin tells you that you can't fly with with the tiedown eyes installed. Anyone follow that recommendation?

Skip

If you land gear up you might damage the tie downs!

[Jsno]

On 11/5/2022 at 9:12 PM, PT20J said:

Every shop I know uses a tail weight except Don Maxwell who uses a couple of old alternator belts around the prop blade shanks and an engine hoist. Mooney's suggestion to use the lifting eye on the engine is absolutely against Lycoming recommendations and if you look at the amount of metal in the crankcase at that point it doesn't seem a good idea. But then, that same service bulletin tells you that you can't fly with with the tiedown eyes installed. Anyone follow that recommendation?

Skip

If you land gear up you might damage the tie downs!

[Shadrach]

6 hours ago, Kelpro999 said:

 

are you moving it inside for paint?

[ArtVandelay]

But then, that same service bulletin tells you that you can't fly with with the tiedown eyes installed. Anyone follow that recommendation?

Yes, I don’t need them most of the time since my plane is hangared.
I do it just give me extra speed.

[A64Pilot]

The funny thing is those that rail against those that don’t use a tail weight, it’s not their opinion or advice.

It’s Mooney’s advice, you know the guys that built the airplane, but what do they know? 

So I guess we need to add Mooney to the list of manufacturers that don’t know what they are talking about and should be ignored?

I can only assume it’s due to unforeseen things, like I’ve seen people sitting in the airplane with it on jacks, a couple of 250 lb people could add a lot of stress on whatever is holding the aircraft down or up if you will.

Personally as my gear are electric I don’t get in the airplane with it on jacks, I reach through the window and can flip switches etc that way.

So far as not flying with the tie down rings installed, I’d bet money that the aircraft wasn’t test flown for Certification with them installed, due to Mooney wanting it in its cleanest configuration as the charts come from this testing, so therefore the restriction of don’t fly with them installed. I’d bet lunch Mooney thought it insignificant and the FAA pointed it out. 

I’ve done quite a bit of Certification, the FAA WILL have findings, it shows they are doing their job, so as a manufacturer you thank them for their attention to detail and put that prohibition in the POH, you have to give them something, so you give in on things that don’t matter.

You might be surprised at what’s in the POH that Mooney didn’t want there, but put there to placate an FAA inspector.

[A64Pilot]

Someone pointed out that their POH had them climbing at 26 squared. But I bet that maybe on a stupid hot day with a heat soaked engine at gross weight, climbing at Vx, you may not can exceed 26 squared and stay within limits, those seemingly silly restrictions come from somewhere

So bottom line, follow the manufacturers instructions, even those you disagree with, just because you don’t understand why they are written, doesn’t mean they are invalid.

If your following them and something bad happens, it makes an investigation more likely to break your way than if you weren’t.

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

Personally as my gear are electric I don’t get in the airplane with it on jacks, I reach through the window and can flip switches etc that way.

You must have really long arms to do the emergency gear extension test required by the Mooney annual/100 hr inspection checklist.