M20J vs M20K

**MikeOH** · July 10, 2022

1 minute ago, William A said:

That’s exactly what I was looking for. What do you need to get out of there if you were at max gross? 200hp J model minimum or the 210hp turbocharged K model and up?

I don't have the experience to tell you.

Just remember that even if the ENGINE is making sea level power, the prop and the wings are still operating at the high density altitude.

1980Mooney · July 10, 2022

7 minutes ago, William A said:

That’s exactly what I was looking for. What do you need to get out of there if you were at max gross? 200hp J model minimum or the 210hp turbocharged K model and up?

There are 2 “max gross” on the J. The later were 2,900 lbs. Earlier were 2,740 lbs. The K was 2,900 lbs and the M20K Encore was 3,130 lbs. You need to look at each POH.

Edited July 10, 2022 by 1980Mooney

William A · July 10, 2022

1 hour ago, 1980Mooney said:

If "$150-200/hr in rental fees and having maintenance issues with the rentals 30% of the time" bothers you I hope you don't think owning a Mooney will reduce that cost. (and I assume $150-200/hr to rent a C-172 is "wet" including fuel). Your hourly cost of owning a J or K will likely be double that. Remember when it comes to airplane ownership some of the biggest lies by owners are related to the true cost of ownership. Why? - because we like to fly and have a passion for it. And it generally costs more than we plan or want to admit.

As a "newbie" I bet your insurance on a Mooney (if you can get it) will be over $4,500/yr.

You said you are in Ft. Worth and I see the smallest T-hangars at Meecham are $425/month and at Spinks $325/month. So you will be spending about $4,000 - 5,000/year just to park your plane.

Your Annual with repairs will easily run $4,000/year - every now and then you will have the "Annual from Hell" that costs way more. The typical A&P in Texas has shop rates of $100/hour or more (and rising).

Don't forget the cost of Databases and Subscriptions - Foreflight, Garmin, Jeppessen, etc. Depending on your avionics stack you could wind up spending another $1,000/year.

So you could be spending $14,000/year in cash without even flying your Mooney one hour. If you fly 60 hr/year then that amortizes to $233/hr.

There are a lot of unexpected maintenance issues when owning and flying (sometimes seems like 30% of the time!) so get ready to write $1,000-2,000 checks every now and then.

And if you can average 11 gal./per hour with 100LL Avgas around Ft. Worth $6.50-7.00 then that will cost $70-77/hr. ($4,200 - 4,600/yr. @ 60 hrs/yr)

So if you fly 60 hr/year your total cost will be about $300/hour.

But you have nothing there for wear and tear and replacement over time.

Engine overhaul $50,000 (and if you have a K with the 6 cylinder turbocharged Continental - although still 360 cu in. and only 210 HP it will cost you WAY MORE to overhaul than the Lycoming in the J)

Prop overhaul - $2,500 - Replacement $10,000

Avionics upgrades $5,000 - 15,000

Paint - $13,000

Fuel Tank Reseal - $10,000

Interior - $5,000

That adds up to over $100,000 so if you can nurse 20 years out of each item then the average annual cost of replacement is $5,000/year. If you fly 60 hours per year that is another $83/hour to amortize. That gets you up to $380+/hour.

And these costs come in big slugs. (some soon after you buy - hence the need for a good "pre-buy" inspection in case the previous owner had deferred a lot of needed repairs and had a lot of "pencil annuals".)

Don't get me wrong - I also did the same thing as you with a young family of 4. I bought a J model Mooney when I had only 48 hours in a C-172 and 1 1/2 months before I got my Private. I had 2 instructors and I didn't tell the first instructor/flight school that I was flying a Mooney at the same time with a different instructor. And I did have insurance. Of course that was "last century". I still have the same Mooney although I added a 300 HP IO-550 to it.

I also used the Mooney to train and get my Instrument ticket - which is something you will definitely want to do if you are flying your family in and out of Angel Fire.

1980 Mooney thank you! That was great information for me to chew on actually. I have a feeling I will starting with the J model 1980-84ish and learn for another 100 hours before taking my family on any long trips! I hear you on the costs. I just hate sharing these rentals. Everyone screws them up right before you want to fly! At least w my own plane it’s just me I can blame. If I’m going to throw another $20k out this year I’d like it to go towards something I can control.

William A · July 10, 2022

5 hours ago, carusoam said:

Welcome aboard WA!

Welcome to the slippery slope of the sliding wants vs. needs argument…

We have a few MSers parents that worked at the factory… and some factory people around here as well….

Even Mooney’s top dog stops by every now and again…

There is a huge gap between training to fly… and buying the fastest factory built airplane in the world…

Get ready to fill in the gap!

Some people are really focussed on learning to fly… and getting to their next level… then the level after that…

Others have priorities like work and family and church and family and sports and families….

It’s not unusual for somebody to want to train in a Long Body… or any Mooney…

Many people around here have purchased a Mooney right after getting their PPL… and a couple have trained in the Long body as well…

Right around 100hrs… is where people determine that renting doesn’t work for them… and a Mooney doesn’t cost much more than other better recognized names…

The 100 hr mark also gives the new pilot a full year to see all kinds of weather and learn about things that occur beyond the local area…

Find a Mooney fly-in… talk Mooneys with a lot of people…

Imagine for a moment… Some Mooneys have better power to weight ratios than Corvettes….

Get Stoked!

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

Does anyone on here remember any of my family? Dad Bill Aston, grandpa Weldon Baker, uncles Randy Baker and Kenneth Baker?

**carusoam** · July 10, 2022

28 minutes ago, William A said:

That’s exactly what I was looking for. What do you need to get out of there if you were at max gross? 200hp J model minimum or the 210hp turbocharged K model and up?

WA,

Now is the time to visit the download section of MS…

Gather up a few of the POHs there… (there are many in there last I checked…)

Compare their performance sections line by line… hp, MGTW, T/O distance, climb rate… useful load… affects of density altitude…

These book numbers go a long way…

One thing you might find out…. Mooneys have tremendous fuel tanks… to go with their four seats…

As PIC you will be able to run the calculations for WnB and T/O distance and climb capability…

Temperature aka DA…. IS important… for every pilot at every airport in the summer…

Even when you have 310hp on the front…

Use every inch of pavement available… until the runway is sooo long you can always hit the brakes.

On a serious note… we have MSers that have run out of runway over the years… from the most experienced to the least experienced… it is tough being human.

Always do the home work… especially when it’s hot, the runway is short, when heavy, or any two…

Wait… don’t forget when above Sea Level…

Now to find David… he is probably the best connection we have to who was working back in the day… his dad worked at the plant for a long time…

or find Mitch… he produced a great video about the Mooney factory with interviews with some key people… Find Boots on the Ground video…

Best regards,

-a-

William A · July 10, 2022

Thank you carusoam I will look for David and Mitch!

philip_g · July 10, 2022

I've had a 231 and a rocket and now have a j. Even at sea level I hate the j performance.

**toto** · July 10, 2022

If you fly in to KAXX, be flexible on your departure dates. I’ve been to Angel Fire many times, but always go in to Raton (reasonable fuel prices, absolutely fantastic FBO and staff). The DA at Angel Fire is one thing, but the winds are very often a “no go” for me. The runway was built north/south because it’s constrained by terrain, but the prevailing winds are out of the west. It’s not unusual to have a 25+ knot direct crosswind, which is way too much for me if I’m already at a high DA airport.

If you wait for the right day, you can get calm winds - especially in the early morning. Just have to be flexible.

**N201MKTurbo** · July 10, 2022

8 hours ago, William A said:

That’s exactly what I was looking for. What do you need to get out of there if you were at max gross? 200hp J model minimum or the 210hp turbocharged K model and up?

Any Mooney ever made will be able to get out of there at max gross weight. All you need to do is look at the takeoff performance charts. The lowest service ceiling for any Mooney is like 17000 feet. That is well above any terrain you need to clear at Angel Fire. Just don’t try to out climb the ridges of the valley. If you are headed east, just fly north to Eagles Nest lake and follow the road to Cimarron. If going west fly circuits to Eagles Nest lake and the airport until getting to 10500 or higher, then follow the road to Taos. Every Mooney ever made can make it to 10500 at max gross weight.

**N201MKTurbo** · July 10, 2022

3 hours ago, toto said:

If you fly in to KAXX, be flexible on your departure dates. I’ve been to Angel Fire many times, but always go in to Raton (reasonable fuel prices, absolutely fantastic FBO and staff). The DA at Angel Fire is one thing, but the winds are very often a “no go” for me. The runway was built north/south because it’s constrained by terrain, but the prevailing winds are out of the west. It’s not unusual to have a 25+ knot direct crosswind, which is way too much for me if I’m already at a high DA airport.

If you wait for the right day, you can get calm winds - especially in the early morning. Just have to be flexible.

You are absolutely right, it isn’t the elevation that will get you it is the winds! A turbo won’t fix that. When the winds are howling, which is often, there can be severe up and down drafts in the passes. Not to mention the turbulence. If you are going to attempt a departure on a windy day make sure you have at least 2000 feet clearance before crossing any ridge. The last time I was planning on landing at Angle Fire, I chickened out and landed at Taos because of the winds at Angel Fire. And I have a turbo..

**carusoam** · July 10, 2022

Once you go TC….

William,

Rich is sharing his aviation knowledge with awesome detail…. A tradition of great MSers!

He also briefly mentioned another upgrade that some MSers have added to their already awesome M20J….

Once you own a plane for a while… a long while… it may achieve forever-plane status.

Forever-planes often get upgrades that on the surface may not make strict economic sense….

Like the Missile mentioned above… adding a 300hp engine to an M20J is a great idea… but, incredibly expensive…

Adding a turbo normalizer to the standard IO360… is a great way to bring sea level power up to higher altitudes….

These upgrades were incredibly expensive back in the day….

Today, they are rare to find as complete kits, with STC, ready to add to a different airframe…

Soooo….. when looking for a great Mooney… if you have a long term ownership horizon…

Consider buying or building a forever-plane…

There are a few forever-planes around MS… still here, after their owners have flown West….

Signs of forever-planes defying economic sense… their instrument panel costs more than their airframe does…

Their new paint scheme costs more than the plane did originally…

M20Es make great forever-planes…

PP thoughts only, not a plane sales guy…

Best regards,

-a-

**EricJ** · July 10, 2022

I've never landed at Angel Fire, or taken off there, but I've flown over it in my J on my way home after taking off from Trinidad. I was at 17500 ft and stopped climbing since I was VFR.

I had help from a mountain wave, but it was still fun to do that with a J.

M20F · July 10, 2022

5 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

You are absolutely right, it isn’t the elevation that will get you it is the winds! A turbo won’t fix that. When the winds are howling, which is often, there can be severe up and down drafts in the passes. Not to mention the turbulence. If you are going to attempt a departure on a windy day make sure you have at least 2000 feet clearance before crossing any ridge. The last time I was planning on landing at Angle Fire, I chickened out and landed at Taos because of the winds at Angel Fire. And I have a turbo..

I would add what is possible is not always fun. Take your family there with 25kts and mountain waves ripping, probably be the last time most families will ever want to fly again.

**Sue Bon** · July 10, 2022

4 hours ago, EricJ said:

I've never landed at Angel Fire, or taken off there, but I've flown over it in my J on my way home after taking off from Trinidad. I was at 17500 ft and stopped climbing since I was VFR.

I had help from a mountain wave, but it was still fun to do that with a J.

17500 feet with a J? How on earth? I struggle to climb with more than 200 fpm after 9000 feet. The previous owner of my plane did climb to FL170 but cracked the engine and had to have it replaced. If I remember correctly, you were/are a jet pilot in the USAF. He is also a FA-18 pilot with the Swiss Air Force.

And... 17'500 feet VFR? Big, massive respect....

Niko182 · July 10, 2022

Just now, Sue Bon said:

17500 feet with a J? How on earth? I struggle to climb with more than 200 fpm after 9000 feet. The previous owner of my plane did climb to FL170 but cracked the engine and had to have it replaced. If I remember correctly, you were/are a jet pilot in the USAF. He is also a FA-18 pilot with the Swiss Air Force.

And... 17'500 feet VFR? Big, massive respect....

If youre only getting 200fpm at 9000ft, something is wrong.

**EricJ** · July 10, 2022

Just now, Sue Bon said:

17500 feet with a J? How on earth? I struggle to climb with more than 200 fpm after 9000 feet. The previous owner of my plane did climb to FL170 but cracked the engine and had to have it replaced. If I remember correctly, you were/are a jet pilot in the USAF. He is also a FA-18 pilot with the Swiss Air Force.

And... 17'500 feet VFR? Big, massive respect....

As I mentioned, I had help from a mountain wave. It was still climbing quite well at 17500, I could have easily kept going but I didn't want to go into our Class A airspace.

I've had it up to 15-16k ft before a few times, though, without too much trouble, and regularly cruise around 10k-11k to clear terrain here in the southwest US. If you're having trouble getting to those altitudes I'd agree that there might be a problem, even in the summer.

**Sue Bon** · July 10, 2022

No, no... I don't have trouble... but 17'500 ft vs. 10-11'00 ft. is a big difference.

I just really notice that I start struggling at about 9000 ft to get the last 1000-2000 feet. Only in summer when DA is higher. I can't imagine climbing to 17000 ft.....

A64Pilot · July 10, 2022

Maule NA airplane over the Canadian rockies, I believe a J model and the Maule are Certified to 18K?

But if you do that often the K model would be better of course, I mean that’s it’s Forte. But if you leave the O2 bottle at home or don’t even own one then it’s not likely you need a K.

I believe it’s really that simple isn’t it?

ArtVandelay · July 10, 2022

The service ceiling for the J at 2300lbs is 23,000’.

sleeper-319 · July 10, 2022

22 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Did you take off at gross on a 10,500 DA day?

I have a J. I did a fuel stop at RKS (Rock Springs, WY) recently, and on departure, it was about 10,000 DA that day. I can’t remember exactly off hand, but we were probably ~100-125 lb under max gross. Climb out was anemic, and getting to our cruise alt of 13500 took a while, but it’s a huge runway and a big, wide-open space. We flew straight out to the easy, and didn’t need to box climb. It was fully uneventful. I didn’t do the calculations, nor fly at max gross though, so no idea off hand how much worse it would have been. Cheers.

A64Pilot · July 10, 2022

3 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

The service ceiling for the J at 2300lbs is 23,000’.

Then it should have no trouble below Class A airspace then?

The other thing I was going to point out is why would someone start a trip in the middle of a hot day? I know I’m old and Retired and not as driven as some, but over the years I’ve learned Summer trips are a whole lot more enjoyable if begun early in the morning before it gets hot, even loading the airplane, untieing it in the heat of the day gets me covered in sweat, the we have the thermals and turbulence down low to deal with too, and where I live the Thunderbumpers really start to build late in the day.

I don’t have a turbo, because I have no need for one, just like I don’t have a four wheel drive vehicle, because I have no need.

If you do have need then of course there is no question which is “better”

1980Mooney · July 10, 2022

5 hours ago, M20F said:

I would add what is possible is not always fun…..

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

… I believe a J model and the Maule are Certified to 18K? But if you do that often the K model would be better of course, I mean that’s it’s Forte. But if you leave the O2 bottle at home or don’t even own one then it’s not likely you need a K.…I believe it’s really that simple isn’t it?

Good point that hasn’t been discussed - Oxygen. And something that you haven’t experienced in a C-172. MEF at Angel Fire is 12,700 ft. To the north it is 13,500 and to the west 13,200. You may say the regs don’t require O2 if you stay below 14,000 for 30 minutes. But sometimes the unexpected happens. And you probably want to give yourself a margin of safety over the mountain ridges. And everyone has slightly different reactions to high altitude due to health. Additionally you may find O2 reduces fatigue even when flying above 10,000 and especially at night.

If you buy a K or as some suggest fly a J above 15,000 then you will definitely want oxygen. BUT you may find your pax don’t like it. Below 18,000 you can use cannulas. Above that you and pax will wear strapped on masks. If you look at ADSB or talk to some pilots, many planes that are capable of flying in the flight levels typically only fly at 12,000 feet or below. Their pax may not want to wear O2.

If you are flying around TX and OK 90% of the time flying at 9-11 k is sweet and no need to go higher.

Aviation is a balancing act of compromises.

Edited July 10, 2022 by 1980Mooney

**Fly Boomer** · July 10, 2022

On 7/9/2022 at 3:30 PM, William A said:

My big question is would it be worth getting the K model for the turbo

Many good observations above but, for me, short answer is M20K=more options.

Or any other turbocharged Mooney.

**N201MKTurbo** · July 11, 2022

I will agree a turbo makes these things easier, but that wasn’t the question. The question was: can you safely operate out of Angel Fire with a NA Mooney? The answer is yes!

**MikeOH** · July 11, 2022

29 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I will agree a turbo makes these things easier, but that wasn’t the question. The question was: can you safely operate out of Angel Fire with a NA Mooney? The answer is yes!

I believe the OP was interested in if he could operate safely at gross weight and 10,500 DA.

Is that still a resounding "YES??"

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