Mooney accident Central Jersey, April 4, 2022…

[201er]

On 4/9/2022 at 10:43 PM, jetdriven said:

there are a bunch of cirrus airplanes based at my field, and every time they pull up to the runway they literally firewall the throttle as hard as they can, and the prop surges two or three times before the governor can actually stop it from surfing and  over speeding. I guess nobody at that Puppy Mill school is teaching smoothness, you know you don’t have to jam everything like it’s a pinball machine. 

No wonder Cirrus is so popular! Why didn’t Mooney think of including a pinball machine!?

[Sixstring2k]

On 4/6/2022 at 10:50 PM, carusoam said:

This is why we would like to hear from the good Bravo driver….

There are so many links in this accident chain… and not enough data to know if the plane landed, or made some contact with the runway…

How many links need to be broken to end up on the street…?

 

Some human responses to runway being used up….

• Hitting the brakes….  They are pretty ineffective at high speeds…. More runway slips by…
• Going full throttle… doesn’t accelerate very fast… More runway slips by…
• Off the ground… trimmed full up… at full power… is a bit of a rodeo… more power, more nose up tendency…
• To calm the rodeo… uses good arm strength… or less than full power…
• Delay while thinking… more runway slips by…

 

Especially, if you haven’t landed long in eons of good flying…

The halfway point of every runway is a common decision point… have that thought out in advance…

Gear up makes great stopping power…

Some pretty tough choices to run through in short order…

 

PP thoughts only, not a CFI…

Best regards,

-a-

The pilot gave an interview to fox 8 news I think NC and he explains what happened 

https://myfox8.com/news/north-carolina/greensboro/greensboro-man-crashes-plane-in-new-jersey/

I am still learning and I am wondering what the think tank thinks. 

[carusoam]

3 minutes ago, Sixstring2k said:

The pilot gave an interview to fox 8 news I think NC and he explains what happened 

https://myfox8.com/news/north-carolina/greensboro/greensboro-man-crashes-plane-in-new-jersey/

I am still learning and I am wondering what the think tank thinks. 

Six,

That is the detail I was hoping to see…

 

Data shows…

1) high

2) fast

 

Pilot indicates…

3) change in wind conditions

4) Hitting the brakes…

5) then deciding to go around…

6) See note about deciding early….

7) The weight of a long body, and it’s associated T/O run… (power dependent)…

8) going back in the air can be tragic…

9) There is an example of a rented M20J in NJ doing something similar… with tragic results…

 

Thanks for sharing the pilot’s input…!

Best regards,

-a-

 

“As I came in, the forecast [was] for headwinds. And when I got to the ground, it was actually a tailwind on the plane,” he said. “That’s when I began to flare over the runway. The wheels touched down once. I went ahead and hit the brakes. The plane jumped, and that’s when I made a decision to go around.” 

[Robert C.]

On 4/7/2022 at 3:24 PM, ilovecornfields said:

Ovation flies just fine at 75 kts with vortex generators. 

yep, I love the VGs on my Ovation  Frankly I'd even say that for 65- 70kts and would recommend an AOA system like the one I got from Alpha Systems to realize the full benefit. The combo makes it much easier/more comfortable to come over the fence at 65-70kts.

With the VGs and a medium load my Vso is 51kts and Vref 65kts. Takes a little getting accustomed to and the AoA indicator makes it easier to accept that flying that slow is safe 

[T. Peterson]

I have no idea as to the cause of this crash, but am so grateful the pilot survived without grievous injury. May God grant him a speedy recovery.

 I was amazed that the cabin was relatively intact. Other parts were mangled but the cabin was whole. My heartfelt appreciation to Mooney engineers. Mooney is a wonderful airplane.

[KB4]

On 4/6/2022 at 1:38 PM, 201er said:

I love how intact the cabin is. Other than a bend to the center tube, looks unchanged. Even the doors open.

Agreed. Amazing engineering.  Unmatched. 

[carusoam]

Inviting @donkaye for another Bravo landing exercise…

I don’t recall seeing Don in this conversation…

Best regards,

-a-

[Will.iam]

On 4/7/2022 at 7:04 AM, David Lloyd said:

Nor is it the same as a missed approach.  10 knots fast, 100 feet high, a little tailwind, a downslope runway, all these things add up.  Doable with a 5000' runway, maybe 4000', maybe even 3500'.  Less than 3000'? Won't work for a Mooney. Making the go-around decision while floating in ground effect halfway down the runway won't work with 3000' either.

Go find a 3000' runway and set up for a normal landing.  10' off the runway, put the power in and go around.  How far down the runway before you are back above the tree tops?  What would have happened beginning the go around more than halfway down the runway?  Everyone should visit a shorter runway and practice occasionally.

I do practice as my home field is only 2600 with a dropping sloped runway that starts half way down. It makes go-around decision easy you are either down before the runway starts dropping off or your going around. You can’t cheat and land closer to the beginning of the runway because on the north end it drops off 200 feet and with a S wind there is a nasty downdraft off the north end that sinks your plane anywhere between 25 to 100 ft down. In 40 years only heard of one accident where a plane crashed short into the north side from a down draft. For new passengers they think you will never make it as you look to high then right before the threshold they usually have interesting choice of words with the huge altitude correction that happens. You have tree line on both sides on the top half as well so any winds not N or S is a crosswind and once you drop below the tree line you have to takeout the crosswind correction or you are headed into the trees. I retract the flaps the moment i touch down to give maximum weight on wheels this keeps flat spotting the tires to a minimum as you are already light on wheels coming down the hill that is not helping you to stop. Out of all the airports i fly into, my home runway is by far the most dangerous. 

[A64Pilot]

On 4/7/2022 at 11:59 PM, Ragsf15e said:

My F is similar. Very near TO setting.

Everyone has an opinion.

My opinion is that if your landing trim is close to your takeoff trim in ANY aircraft, then a surprise go-around won’t be a handful as of course your trimmed for a T/O. But if your landing trim is way up from there so control force is nearly neutral in the flare, then a surprise go-around is more likely to be a handful, as your trimmed for a stall, because we are either in or close to a stall at landing aren’t we?

Departure stalls give me the Willies.

 

Edited April 25, 2022 by A64Pilot

[LANCECASPER]

It looks like the airplane is being sold for salvage.

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20M+BRAVO&listing_id=2406778&s-type=aircraft#

[toto]

23 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

It looks like the airplane is being sold for salvage.

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20M+BRAVO&listing_id=2406778&s-type=aircraft#

Ugh. Dropped 32k on a WAAS upgrade shortly before the accident.

http://www.avclaims.com/N41XL.html

[LANCECASPER]

18 hours ago, toto said:

Ugh. Dropped 32k on a WAAS upgrade shortly before the accident.

http://www.avclaims.com/N41XL.html

Hopefully he added the increased value to his policy. Either way, surviving is good enough.

[steingar]

To me a go around and a T&G are very different things, I do the former but never the latter.  To me T&G are the repetitive circuits we did in trainers when we were learning to fly.  I'll never do that in a complex, too many things going on and too easy to get killed if you do one wrong.  

I don't get how anyone can let it get down to the runway before initiating the go-around.  You know how high you are and how fast you're going, it's either going to work or it isn't.  You should have a pretty good idea of things going south a long time before you touch down.

Had to do a go around at my home airport last time out.  Just wasn't going right and I pulled the plug before things go too bad, did the Mooney dip and everything.  I do have to admit of having the bad habit of trying to stuff it in most days.  Ego.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, steingar said:

I don't get how anyone can let it get down to the runway before initiating the go-around.  You know how high you are and how fast you're going, it's either going to work or it isn't.  You should have a pretty good idea of things going south a long time before you touch down.

Sometimes things happen on the runway in front of you--another plane will pull out, deer walk onto it, the fuel truck crosses . . . . Or something happens to upset your approach, like a strong wind gust, or the wind suddenly decreases, you fly into a weird swirl created by buildings, hitting sink crossing a river on short final, etc.

Stuff happens. Some can be corrected quickly, some can't; for the latter, go around--high, low or in-between. 

[cliffy]

T&Gs unsafe?   I used to do them in 727s, 737s not in the sim.   Never had a problem. Its all in cockpit dicipline.

[rbp]

17 minutes ago, cliffy said:

T&Gs unsafe?   I used to do them in 727s, 737s not in the sim.   Never had a problem. Its all in cockpit dicipline.

the whole regimen of getting the airplane safely on the ground -- including balked landings, go-arounds, T&Gs, etc., in a variety of configurations and conditions requires discipline. These are skills that need to be developed and practiced, and are not universal

[Hank]

23 minutes ago, cliffy said:

T&Gs unsafe?   I used to do them in 727s, 737s not in the sim.   Never had a problem. Its all in cockpit dicipline.

It's a common mantra, hear it all the time.

I just did one on my BFR / IPC last week, one of the few remaining VOR-A approaches. Shot the approach, circled to land (5002' long), touched down, raised flaps, added power and took off. Not a big deal. Headed off for a precision approach elsewhere.

[jetdriven]

Yes, it’s not a big deal, until you grab the wrong lever and put the gear up on the runway. I’m not saying it certainly happens but it sure happens a lot during touch and goes. There’s a reason why airlines have pretty universal acceptance that you don’t start moving switches until you’re clear of the runway.  At beauty it’s division of attention during a critical phase of flight, and flying the airplane is more important than moving stuff.

[Hank]

16 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Yes, it’s not a big deal, until you grab the wrong lever and put the gear up on the runway. I’m not saying it certainly happens but it sure happens a lot during touch and goes. There’s a reason why airlines have pretty universal acceptance that you don’t start moving switches until you’re clear of the runway.  At beauty it’s division of attention during a critical phase of flight, and flying the airplane is more important than moving stuff.

I can raise the flaps while holding throttle to idle, by moving one finger. To get to the gear, I have to let go and raise my hand. I generally raise my flaps before braking, too--it saves brakes and prevents flat-spotting the tires by reducing lift.

[Shadrach]

12 hours ago, steingar said:

To me a go around and a T&G are very different things, I do the former but never the latter.  To me T&G are the repetitive circuits we did in trainers when we were learning to fly.  I'll never do that in a complex, too many things going on and too easy to get killed if you do one wrong.  

I don't get how anyone can let it get down to the runway before initiating the go-around.  You know how high you are and how fast you're going, it's either going to work or it isn't.  You should have a pretty good idea of things going south a long time before you touch down.

Had to do a go around at my home airport last time out.  Just wasn't going right and I pulled the plug before things go too bad, did the Mooney dip and everything.  I do have to admit of having the bad habit of trying to stuff it in most days.  Ego.

People commit to lousy approaches all the time, usually in the form of surplus speed, altitude or both. It works out fine with sufficient runway to buffer one’s sins. However, for some it’s not a flubbed execution but stated SOP.  3500 is not especially short, but it’s not enough to absorb crossing the threshold at nearly 2 X Vso.  My guess is this gentleman developed a bad habit that was normalized through repetition until he came across conditions that brought thing to an unfortunate but inevitable conclusion.

you’re  correct that touch and goes and go around are not the same thing. However, It is useful to be comfortable with both.

[Shadrach]

3 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Yes, it’s not a big deal, until you grab the wrong lever and put the gear up on the runway. I’m not saying it certainly happens but it sure happens a lot during touch and goes. There’s a reason why airlines have pretty universal acceptance that you don’t start moving switches until you’re clear of the runway.  At beauty it’s division of attention during a critical phase of flight, and flying the airplane is more important than moving stuff.

I agree that there are risks but not all cockpits are the same.  It would take  a tremendous flub to grab the wrong switch in a Mooney with electric gear and flaps. To do it in a Mooney with a Johnson bar and hydraulic flaps, one would have to be cognitively impaired.

[Tony Starke]

3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I agree that there are risks but not all cockpits are the same.  It would take  a tremendous flub to grab the wrong switch in a Mooney with electric gear and flaps. To do it in a Mooney with a Johnson bar and hydraulic flaps, one would have to be cognitively impaired.

C’mon man! Cognitive impairment is a conspiracy. Flying is like riding a bike. 

[cliffy]

There;s really no difference between a go around and a T&G  except the order of 2 items 

You reset the flaps first and then push the throttle fwd on a T&G 

On a GA you push the throttle first and then reset the flaps.

After that both are then a normal takeoff. 

Resetting the flaps  is reality the only item different than a normal take off.

Ttrim should already be set for 1.3 Vso anyway so rotation will be normal with a climb out initially at 1.3 

Retrim as necessary no hurry on anything. 

The only 2 things we did in the Boeing was reset trim and flaps. Push the knobs fwd and fly. 

The problem always comes down to competency and currency.

If either one of those is missing its time to find an instructor and invest gas money in practice. 

The job itself is not that difficult.

If one is flying 20 hrs a year or less then one is NOT competent and a large portion of GA flies less than 20hrs/year. JMO

[steingar]

On 6/20/2022 at 10:48 AM, Hank said:

Sometimes things happen on the runway in front of you--another plane will pull out, deer walk onto it, the fuel truck crosses . . . . Or something happens to upset your approach, like a strong wind gust, or the wind suddenly decreases, you fly into a weird swirl created by buildings, hitting sink crossing a river on short final, etc.

Stuff happens. Some can be corrected quickly, some can't; for the latter, go around--high, low or in-between. 

If you're watching the runway you should be able to see what other vehicles in the vicinity are doing.  Been doing it for 35 years on a motorcycle, isn't that hard and I've less of a view than in the airplane.  Admittedly wildlife can be more challenging, though most of the airports I fly to are surrounded by big fences.

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, steingar said:

If you're watching the runway you should be able to see what other vehicles in the vicinity are doing.  Been doing it for 35 years on a motorcycle, isn't that hard and I've less of a view than in the airplane.  Admittedly wildlife can be more challenging, though most of the airports I fly to are surrounded by big fences.

I’d just be careful, as an outside observer to this discussion, it appears that you’ve already made up your mind not to go around after touching down or maybe flaring is the cutoff? Or maybe round out?  Or short final?

I guess my point is, don’t let yourself think that you’re infallible to the point of locking out a good option of going around after touchdown.

I have a good amount of time, lots of instructor time, fly professionally, etc, and I had to go around after touchdown with my whole family on board.  I firmly believe it was safer than staying on the ground.  Runway was ~3,500’, so not short, airspeeds were reasonable, maybe not perfect, weather was blustery but not overly.  Somehow I flared and bounced.  Up until that point, I had nothing telling me this landing would be any different than the last 600 Mooney landings.  Did I catch a gust? Micronap?  Too steep?  Too fast?  I don’t know, but I am sure the next bounce would have been much harder.  T&G practice made the GA execution second nature, even with (or especially with) the full flaps I had.