GPS recommendations for '79 M20k with original radios

[gsxrpilot]

11 hours ago, warrenn said:

Also, having a DME always active means I don't need to push a button to get a reading on the IFD.

Just put distance to destination in a data block on the screen, and you'll have DME all the time. No need to push a button to get it.

[kortopates]

If you're flying IFR, the GPS has to go in your center stack where you can keep in your scan. Data fields for DIST, DTK, TRK and ETE are all critical to precision flying. Till you really learn how to fly with GPS this may not seem as important as it is. A good glass PFD will also help a lot in bringing some of those data fields to your PFD, such as diatnce to your active waypoint. You'll quickly become dissaisfied if its installed on the left.  Just imagine busy workload IMC on approach and you have to reach al the way over to the right to GPS and the plane is quickly heading for unusual attitudes!

[warrenn]

Avidyne has an app called IFD100 which allows me to have the 540 screen on my iPad which is right in front of my eyes on the yoke. I would still probably use my KNS-80 for non-GPS approaches and the 540 for GPS. The 197 is being repaired and will be COMM 1. Again, I am not interested in a glass panel, just a decent GPS based nav system (and second COMM - the 170 works great but it is a little old). I am also used to hand flying the plane as the KFC 200 autopilot hasn't worked in 25 years and is very expensive to fix. 

I am very used to the steam gauges and have flown in just about every kind of condition using them successfully over the 30 years I have owned the plane. I have gotten into some trouble using touch screens on my iPad in light turbulence. For example, I was using WingX with an ILS approach plate on the iPad when I accidentally tapped the screen and the thing went into never-never land (WingX bug). Fortunately, I had been flying that approach for 35 years and knew the numbers and it was VFR.  (The hold button - which is depressed in my photo - is a tricky one on the KNS80. You need to release it after use!).

I have also had problems with Foreflight - a great app with many features but a difficult UI in the cockpit (I prefer WIngX). Once on a long IFR flight in terrible conditions I selected the approach plate only to be informed that it needed to be downloaded! I had prepared very carefully for the flight and am sure I used the "pack" operation on FF and downloaded all the data. Fortunately, I had paper plates for the destination.

The bottom line is that I trust the old stuff much more than the new. 

Edited May 8, 2021 by warrenn

[David Lloyd]

On 4/15/2021 at 2:52 PM, warrenn said:

I can probably consider Garmin (though I don't like the company) if I can find a unit which allows most of the operations to be done with the buttons. Touch operations in turbulence is a problem (from my experience using my iPads with WingX and Foreflight).  

 

I've been flying with a Garmin GNX375 for the last hundred hours and find on a bumpy day I am about 10x as likely to try unsuccessfully to do something on my iPad.  It really isn't a big deal after a period of time.  I remember having a KX155 installed new way back when in lieu of an aging KX170 and worrying I would break off those flimsy little knobs.  Never happened.

17 hours ago, warrenn said:

I actually like the KNS80 - it is extremely intuitive to use and I am used to it. Also, having a DME always active means I don't need to push a button to get a reading on the IFD. The accuracy in RNAV mode leaves a lot to be desired, though. I am amazed that it does a full RNAV using a very primitive Moto 6800 8-bit CPU for the number crunching (I looked inside it). 

 

With either the Garmin and surely the Avidyne, a button push will get nearest airports or VORs or intersections, etc.  Then you can see all the closest VORs and distances.  Huge amount of information.

[MIm20c]

IMO you are thinking about this wrong. Buy and install the 540 for use as your main navigation and communication source. Use it a lot and learn how to utilize all the functions.  It should make you a safer pilot…

[warrenn]

You make a very valid point. I will try to have the older stuff moved to the right if it is not too expensive. I figure at least 10 hours of instruction by someone proficient on the 540 before I am somewhat comfortable with it. 

I am not getting any younger and, while I will not avoid a flight because of ifr, I won’t fly in very challenging conditions (35 years ago, I sought out terrible conditions. That wasn’t very smart…). I need to accept that learning a completely new navigation paradigm will take time and I will probably never feel as comfortable in it as using the older one. 
 

Again, thanks for all your good avdvice!
 

wn

Edited May 8, 2021 by warrenn

[donkaye]

44 minutes ago, warrenn said:

You make a very valid point. I will try to have the older stuff moved to the right if it is not too expensive. I figure at least 10 hours of instruction by someone proficient on the 540 before I am somewhat comfortable with it. 

I am not getting any younger and, while I will not avoid a flight because of ifr, I won’t fly in very challenging conditions (35 years ago, I sought out terrible conditions. That wasn’t very smart…). I need to accept that learning a completely new navigation paradigm will take time and I will probably never feel as comfortable in it as using the older one. 
 

Again, thanks for all your good avdvice!
 

wn

I don't think you are giving yourself enough credit.  At least the GTNs are simple to operate either in turbulence or out of it.  In 15 minutes I think I could teach someone enough about it to feel comfortable loading flight plans and airways, inserting and deleting waypoints, airways, holds, and approaches, and running a GPS approach.  Give me another 15 minutes and I could explain VNAV and its uses.

Compared to understanding the VOR and its use in navigating airways and determining position with cross radials, the newer GPSs and glass panels are hands down a "piece of cake" to learn.

[warrenn]

By the way, I just discovered that Garmin does not allow software updates using a Mac. Since I have only Macs, this is another reason for not using their products.

wn

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, warrenn said:

By the way, I just discovered that Garmin does not allow software updates using a Mac. Since I have only Macs, this is another reason for not using their products.

wn

What do you mean?  I'm strictly an Apple Mac person, and all my updates from Garmin (almost all my Avionics are Garmin) are done on either the Mac or the iPad.

[kortopates]

Just now, warrenn said:

By the way, I just discovered that Garmin does not allow software updates using a Mac. Since I have only Macs, this is another reason for not using their products.

wn

One thing I love about my Garmin panel - which is everything Garmin, (G500, GTN 750 & 650, and GTX-345)  is that I don't ever pull out an SD card to update databases. All database updates are bluetoothed from Garmin pilot to the FS-510 and then the GTN 750 synchronizes the G500 and 650 while I am taxing to the run-up area. 

Regarding trusting the old stuff more than the new - that's just a matter of training and becoming proficient with the new stuff before you fly IMC with it. I teach an Advanced IFR class at the community college which is exacty intended for older pilots that don't yet have GPS & glass experiences. The class also uses Redbird sims (half of which are legacy Redbirds with GNS530W and the other half are G1000 Redbirds). Perhaps you could find a similar class in your area. Once you get proficient using your new GPS you'll have no use for the KNS80 since the GPS will also have VOR/Localizer capability. Plus you'll really enjoy learning new tricks with new avioincs.

It might even be better to just rent a C172 with a modern updated panel before you invest a lot in your panel so you can learn what you like and how to use them before you make expensive decisions on your panel that you won't be able to easily change. 

[warrenn]

Well, there is more to this than meets the eye! I did a search for GTN software updates and found a Garmin page which described how to do it and they said: "Macintosh computers are not supported at this time". Maybe I should have looked further. I also noticed that Avidyne seems to require that a dealer do the upgrade - it has a page requiring that you sign a "consent form" taking responsibility for any damage to the IFD if the update goes wrong.

I am 77 and am in very good heath at present (who knows how long that will last?) and was thinking of giving up aviation when I turned 80. (Or lose my medical, whichever happens first). My instructor for my last BFR was a lady close to 90 and she knows the Garmin UI very well (she is a CFII).  

My brain seems to work OK, so I can still learn new user interfaces for common operations (I am writing a physics textbook and seem to be doing it OK). Maybe I should embrace the new experience of a modern navigator! I do have an enormous amount of time and money invested in aviation and shouldn't give it up without a good reason.

Still searching, and thanks for comments!

wn

Edited May 9, 2021 by warrenn

[gsxrpilot]

2 hours ago, warrenn said:

Well, there is more to this than meets the eye! I did a search for GTN software updates and found a Garmin page which described how to do it and they said: "Macintosh computers are not supported at this time". Maybe I should have looked further. I also noticed that Avidyne seems to require that a dealer do the upgrade - it has a page requiring that you sign a "consent form" taking responsibility for any damage to the IFD if the update goes wrong.

I am 77 and am in very good heath at present (who knows how long that will last?) and was thinking of giving up aviation when I turned 80. (Or lose my medical, whichever happens first). My instructor for my last BFR was a lady close to 90 and she knows the Garmin UI very well (she is a CFII).  

My brain seems to work OK, so I can still learn new user interfaces for common operations (I am writing a physics textbook and seem to be doing it OK). Maybe I should embrace the new experience of a modern navigator! I do have an enormous amount of time and money invested in aviation and shouldn't give it up without a good reason.

Still searching, and thanks for comments!

wn

You're getting bad information somewhere. Or maybe it's just confusing. 

When updating Navigators, there are two types of updates. The monthly Nav updates which come as part of a Jep subscription, are updatable by the pilot for both Garmin and Avidyne. Garmin can update over bluetooth/wifi with the FlightStream box installed. Avidyne's are updated using a USB stick. Updates can be sent from Mac or Windows machines for both Garmin and Avidyne.

The second type of update is a software or firmware update. Both Garmin and Avidyne required dealers to do this update. Avidyne has often bowed to pressure from us pilots and released updates to customers to install themselves. The software update for Avidyne is via a USB stick and can be programmed from either a Mac or Windows machine.

[warrenn]

Thank you for the correction. I don't know where that web page came from about Garmin software installation - it might have been very old. I can certainly understand why they would want a dealer to do the software/firmware installation - an error in that area can have serious consequences.

[ArtVandelay]

One thing I love about my Garmin panel - which is everything Garmin, (G500, GTN 750 & 650, and GTX-345)  is that I don't ever pull out an SD card to update databases. All database updates are bluetoothed from Garmin pilot to the FS-510 and then the GTN 750 synchronizes the G500 and 650 while I am taxing to the run-up area. 

In another forum they said it takes over an hour for their GTN to sync with G500...I told them this isn’t normal, although I had no insight to why.

[carusoam]

15 hours ago, warrenn said:

Well, there is more to this than meets the eye! I did a search for GTN software updates and found a Garmin page which described how to do it and they said: "Macintosh computers are not supported at this time". Maybe I should have looked further. I also noticed that Avidyne seems to require that a dealer do the upgrade - it has a page requiring that you sign a "consent form" taking responsibility for any damage to the IFD if the update goes wrong.

I am 77 and am in very good heath at present (who knows how long that will last?) and was thinking of giving up aviation when I turned 80. (Or lose my medical, whichever happens first). My instructor for my last BFR was a lady close to 90 and she knows the Garmin UI very well (she is a CFII).  

My brain seems to work OK, so I can still learn new user interfaces for common operations (I am writing a physics textbook and seem to be doing it OK). Maybe I should embrace the new experience of a modern navigator! I do have an enormous amount of time and money invested in aviation and shouldn't give it up without a good reason.

Still searching, and thanks for comments!

wn

I like you.

You are leading in an area where we all want to go some day...

We have witnessed a Mooney pilot fly his plane, solo, on his 100th birthday... just recently...

We have a few members that fly their Mooneys into their 80s... flying octogenarians... (a club I want to join...)

We might even have some nonagenarians around here...

I would love to recommend some cognitive exercises for you...

Not sure if writing a physics textbook is enough...   

Diet, exercise, attend Mooney fly-ins...

Getting to see other Mooney instrument panels live.... is an amazing opportunity...

See if you can add a location to your avatar...

Best regards,

-a-

[donkaye]

5 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

In another forum they said it takes over an hour for their GTN to sync with G500...I told them this isn’t normal, although I had no insight to why.

That is true if you sync the flight charts.  Syncing everything else only takes about 5 minutes.  Flight charts only takes a couple of minutes on my home computer, so I bring the card home for that update. That really is't necessary, though.  Any chart that you need will sync over to the G500 anytime you need it, if the full syncing process hasn't completed.  As mentioned above, the full process takes about an hours, so you need at least an hour flight to complete the process.  If it doesn't complete before you shut down, it has to start from scratch over again.

[warrenn]

Thanks for the kind words, Anthony.  And thanks to the rest of the group - reading this forum has been inspiring. You have convinced me to keep flying my second of two Mooneys as long as I can pass the 3rd class Medical. They are a wonderful series of planes I have owned since my first Ranger, which I bought in 1985 and proceeded to quickly get my Instrument and Commercial ratings (the first of which is fairly necessary to do any serious flying here in the Seattle area). 
 

I will try to make a careful choice of navigator and its placement on my panel. After all, the electronics state of the art has advanced greatly since my current avionics were made, some 40 years ago. Moore’s law and all that. 

Cheers,

Warren 

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by warrenn

[LANCECASPER]

24 minutes ago, warrenn said:

Thanks for the kind words, Anthony.  And thanks to the rest of the group - reading this forum has been inspiring. You have convinced me to keep flying my second of two Mooneys as long as I can pass the 3rd class Medical. They are a wonderful series of planes I have owned since my first Ranger, which I bought in 1985 and proceeded to quickly get my Instrument and Commercial ratings (the first of which is fairly necessary to do any serious flying here in the Seattle area). 
 

I will try to make a careful choice of navigator and its placement on my panel. After all, the electronics state of the art has advanced greatly since my current avionics was made, some 40 years ago. Moore’s law and all that. 

Cheers,

Warren 

 

Somewhere on this post I remembered reading that you have a KFC200 that hasn’t worked in years. It might be worth a call to Bob Weber. He specializes in helping owners with legacy autopilots. it’s nice to have a working autopilot, especially in busy airspace. @Bob Weber Webairconsulting.com 

 

[warrenn]

2 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

Somewhere on this post I remembered reading that you have a KFC200 that hasn’t worked in years. It might be worth a call to Bob Weber. He specializes in helping owners with legacy autopilots. it’s nice to have a working autopilot, especially in busy airspace. @Bob Weber Webairconsulting.com 

 

 

[warrenn]

Thanks, I will send him an email. I suspect that it will cost a fair bit, as the servos haven’t been activated in 25 years.  

 

[carusoam]

In case health issues become a challenge...

I have some notes I can share...
 

When Class III becomes hard to maintain...

Class III SI is next...  SI = Special Issuance....

When Class III SI becomes too expensive to maintain...

Basic Med is next...

 

When it comes to cognitive challenges...

PIC is pretty good at knowing when to say when...

And that BFR can be helpful...

Bringing along a Mooney specific CFII is really helpful at knowing how well you are doing...

Bringing along another Mooney pilot... not always helpful...   they tend to help you want to sell your plane at a deep discount... for some reason... 

PP ideas I have seen around here in the past...  the community has seen it all...  and have shared most of it...

@Bennett documented his pragmatic engineering approach towards hanging up his flying boots... without mentioning that he knew the end was closer than expected...   Bob had a similar engineering approach and documented his last flight around the country with a grand nephew...

My favorite Mooney CFII, @Cris was pretty quiet about his health issues... but stayed involved as long as he could...  He enjoyed all things Mooney aviation...

This getting older thing has its limitations...  statistics suggest...  it’s tougher being a young guy... 

Best regards,

-a-

[LANCECASPER]

10 minutes ago, warrenn said:

Thanks, I will send him an email. I suspect that it will cost a fair bit, as the servos haven’t been activated in 25 years.  

 

Used autopilot parts have never been so plentiful and reasonable. People are taking out functional autopilots at record rates.

[Bob Weber]

16 hours ago, warrenn said:

Thanks, I will send him an email. I suspect that it will cost a fair bit, as the servos haven’t been activated in 25 years.  

 

Warren in today's market we are seeing more and more replaced systems which is freeing up a pool of spares.

This allows us the option to simply replace a defective unit if it is beyond economical repair.

The positive thing here is getting the later version of servo if yours is the non ruggedized version.

The very first step will be to determine what is working and what isn't, as well as a look at the logs for past work on any of the autopilot components.

It's not unusual to work with "reviving" these systems, it's getting far easier with the spares availability.

The general regret comes when we get it back on the rails and you realize just how well it works and what you have been missing all these years!

Bob Weber 616-822-1999

[warrenn]

I think I should mention that I have pretty much decided to install a single Avidyne IFD 540 in my 231 sometime in September, as our single on-field shop is backed up. I might also repair my KFC-200 autopilot using the skilled help of Bob Weber. I will certainly connect the 540 output to my HSI but I am not sure I will couple the unit to my autopilot. Coupled approaches seem scary to me - I don't want an old autopilot malfunctioning near the ground.

Right now, my plane is sitting in the shop having mostly finished its annual, but waiting for a repaired exhaust pipe which was badly corroded. I will probably pay through the nose for the repair - this is the problem with maintaining a 42 year old airplane.

Cheers,

Warren N

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, warrenn said:

I think I should mention that I have pretty much decided to install a single Avidyne IFD 540 in my 231 sometime in September, as our single on-field shop is backed up. I might also repair my KFC-200 autopilot using the skilled help of Bob Weber. I will certainly connect the 540 output to my HSI but I am not sure I will couple the unit to my autopilot. Coupled approaches seem scary to me - I don't want an old autopilot malfunctioning near the ground.

Right now, my plane is sitting in the shop having mostly finished its annual, but waiting for a repaired exhaust pipe which was badly corroded. I will probably pay through the nose for the repair - this is the problem with maintaining a 42 year old airplane.

Cheers,

Warren N

Hi Warren, if you’re autopilot is working, not coupling your new IFD to it is short sighted.  You get to choose when the AP is connected, so if you don’t want it to fly an approach, that’s fine, but you really want the IFD and AP to fly enroute!  My autopilot (STEC 30) steers course beautifully, but it only has altitude hold.  I prefer to fly the approach, but I love the autopilot for cruise and during vectors.  No reason to hand fly for a few hours in cruise.  Especially if you’re flying an airway or route with multiple turns.  You should use that time to keep track of changing weather, traffic, alternates, etc.  I’m sure you do some of that now, but you’ll be shocked how much additional awareness you’ll have as you just monitor the autopilot while thinking ahead.  Yes, you’ll still monitor the autopilot and the gps, but you’ll have much more time for bigger picture stuff which it turns out is really important.

Typically, it’s not that hard to couple the AP to an IFD, but you may need a “GPSS” source.  Your avionics shop can explain this, but it basically takes digital GPS steering and turns it into analog instructions for your autopilot.  There should be lots of used options available right now.

Edited June 12, 2021 by Ragsf15e