Garmin's Repair Model and Pricing: Because: Screw you, Mr. Customer... we can

[RJBrown]

I was happy with the stock avionics in my 1990 MSE until the LORAN system was shut down.

I was happy with the stock avionics in my 1980 231 after the LORAN was installed.

a simple GPS to replace the Lorans would have been fine.

putting $50-75,000 in new glass in and then $1000 a year to keep updated. Not for me.

it’s like the I-phone. There are people that will spend whatever they ask to have the “latest”

As long I’m legal IFR direct, Have an iPad with ForeFlight on the yoke, a good autopilot and an HSI I’m just fine.

The panel pictured below with a engine monitor and a ForeFlight iPad. Good to go.

 

[RobertGary1]

14 minutes ago, RJBrown said:

I was happy with the stock avionics in my 1990 MSE until the LORAN system was shut down.

I was happy with the stock avionics in my 1980 231 after the LORAN was installed.

a simple GPS to replace the Lorans would have been fine.

putting $50-75,000 in new glass in and then $1000 a year to keep updated. Not for me.

it’s like the I-phone. There are people that will spend whatever they ask to have the “latest”

As long I’m legal IFR direct, Have an iPad with ForeFlight on the yoke, a good autopilot and an HSI I’m just fine.

The panel pictured below with a engine monitor and a ForeFlight iPad. Good to go.

 

The iPad is an insane deal. For a couple hundred bucks you get the latest database that cost over $1000/yr to update in the panel. I wouldn't even consider updating my SafeTaxi, Terrain, Obstacles in panel since I tend to see those on the iPad.

 

-Robert

[Hank]

2 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

The iPad is an insane deal. For a couple hundred bucks you get the latest database that cost over $1000/yr to update in the panel. I wouldn't even consider updating my SafeTaxi, Terrain, Obstacles in panel since I tend to see those on the iPad.

My Galaxy tablet with GPS is a fraction the cost of an iPad, and Avare is free (including georeferenced approach plates and airport diagrams) (but it won't run on ios).

[RobertGary1]

7 hours ago, Hank said:

My Galaxy tablet with GPS is a fraction the cost of an iPad, and Avare is free (including georeferenced approach plates and airport diagrams) (but it won't run on ios).

yesterday when I fired up my plane my iPad reported ATC had issued me a different clearance than I'd filed and asked if I wanted to push it up to my Garmin in panel GPS. So all that was done without having to manually enter my entire clearance. 

[Danb]

Garmin being a profitable company on the Exchange we should have enjoyed in their success by investing in GRMN when they went public. It’s still a recommended buy. There founders are worth approximately 2B 

[RobertGary1]

There is a flip side of Garmin's model. If you have a box that is totally messed up in everyway its still just a flat fee. But I understand. A year ago I pressed the reversion button on the G1000 for my student and the button came off and flew into the back seat. No one wants to send the unit back to Garmin just to replace the button. So its kind of taped on there. Actually in IMC later in turb the thing kept reverting back and forth probably because of this button issue.

 

[carusoam]

7 hours ago, Danb said:

Garmin being a profitable company on the Exchange we should have enjoyed in their success by investing in GRMN when they went public. It’s still a recommended buy. There founders are worth approximately 2B 

Oddly, their rival and one time employer (of Gary and Min) aka BK / Honeywell (HON) has done extremely well also...

Garmin is a great consumer products company...

Honeywell seems to be getting further away from consumer products...

Oddly part 2... I did buy the GRMN early on... but couldn’t stay the course... as GPS was showing up in everything built by everyone... and there was no moat to protect them...

I really wanted a Garmin cell phone with GPS in it... they lasted about a year...

Its a very tricky business to design and build and sell consumer products...

Garmin is good... but competition from the fruit company (appl) is incredibly strong...

PP thoughts only, not an investment manager...
Best regards,

-a-

[Bentonck]

On 4/13/2021 at 4:58 PM, Ragsf15e said:

That definitely sucks.  Sorry to hear.

On the other hand, I recently had a Bose A20 start going intermittently on the microphone.  Free shipping, free repair, free return within one week.  No questions asked.  The A20 was purchased in 2015 by a different person.

I had the same experience.  I had a BRAND NEW Bose headset, I had used it once, and a passanger sat on it and cracked the plastic connector holding the pivot on.  I called Bose to ask aboug getting a new headpiece and they told me just to send it in and they would fix it for free....

[PT20J]

I don't think it is fair to compare a headset to panel mount avionics. The headsets probably cost Bose $150 bucks to make so there is a lot of mark up in there. Bose can afford to repair them for free since the parts are inexpensive. You essentially purchased a hidden extended warranty when you bought the product.

Panel mount avionics are much more like personal computers. If you open them up you will find a display, a few (fewer all the time with touch displays) custom controls and a double-sided surface-surface mount PC board or two. The latter are not worth the cost to troubleshoot and repair so if the problem is a board, it almost certainly gets thrown in the recycle pile (for precious metal recovery) and a new board gets substituted. Then the whole thing gets tested and recertified. Modern avionics are just not easily field repairable. But, the flip side is that they are more reliable and don't need repair as often  since there are no wires to break, hand-done cold solder joints, and the components -- especially displays -- are much less likely to fail. Garmin has also gone to quality DB style connectors on the trays so that there are a lot fewer problems with connections than with the older King and Narco stuff. And, modern avionics generate a lot less heat.

Skip

[A64Pilot]

Bose isn’t golden either, they orphan products too.

‘My Maule came with the original Bose noise cancelling headset with a panel mounted connector. One ear quit working so I called them to have it fixed and was told we don’t support that model anymore, you’ll have to buy a new one, so I asked if I could get a trade in discount, No. Then I asked if the new one would connect to the panel connector I had, again no, well is there an adapter, NO, OK, well is the new connector at least the same size so it will fit in the hole I have in my panel? No.

I inherited a Bose though and stored it and my Zulu for three years while we were out sailing, every bit of the rubbery parts of the Zulu deteriorated into a goo, and the wiring insulation fell apart, but Zulu did fix everything for $150.

The Bose needed a new set of ear cushions, nothing else deteriorated, they were stored in the same box.

[Schllc]

On 4/19/2021 at 9:31 AM, mike_elliott said:

My old business motto was "if you take care of the customer, they will take care of you. If you dont take care of the customer, they will take care of you"

 

This axiom isn’t quite as true in aviation, as it is in most markets. 
There is an element of captive market present in almost all aircraft related transactions, be it a manufacturer, vendor or mechanic.
You just don’t have a lot of options, and the market adapts to that whether it’s good for customers or not. 
I recently had a commitment to have something done in three days.  This was confirmed prior to flying to the location.  Six weeks later it was completed. 
I was told during this time that I was in line and they can’t bump me ahead of others. 
Given the situation moving the plane wasn’t an option. 
I don’t think the shop is a bad shop, they just know once the nut is cracked you can’t do anything so they behave accordingly.  
This attitude is more prevalent than not in my experience. 
To be fair, I don’t think it’s intentional or predatory, it just is what it is...

Garmin is part of this culture, they didn’t create it, it’s the fault of the FAA for not being able to adjust with technology. The bureaucracy is so large and inordinately complex it stifles any real innovation and progress.   
After this lawsuit against the warbirds organization in FL, it would appear the FAA would prefer small GA not even exist. 
 

If people wanted to fix the problem they would go to the source, which isn’t manufacturers or vendors or shops.  The only way to really fix it is competition, which means the market has to open. Don’t you ever wonder why our engines are 1930’s technology?

[steingar]

On 4/21/2021 at 2:41 AM, carusoam said:

Oddly, their rival and one time employer (of Gary and Min) aka BK / Honeywell (HON) has done extremely well also...

Curious to read this.  When I started flying Garmin was an upshot and BK ruled GA.  Their products were the most desirable to have in your panel, and most airplanes had them.  Fast forward a few years and Garmin is king of the hill and BK more a joke than anything else.  Who has a new BK box in their panel?  Anyone? 

[A64Pilot]

Bendix / King stayed the course, just like most everything else in aviation.

Story I heard was either Gary or Min, maybe both tried to convince the owners of Bendix / King to build a GPS navigator and they refused believing that the VOR system would still be dominant, so they left and made history.

‘Of course Garmin didn’t really build a GPS navigator to start with, they bought Apollo, which was or is a great box but for whatever reason flopped and they had been bought by UPS, you know the brown box package people. Why they bought Apollo I have no idea, I guess to sell it?

But I’m an old guy now and I trained on Bendix / King stuff, know how to use it and it’s familiar, if you ever get task overloaded in bad weather, simple / familiar is very important 

‘My Father used to drive me nuts because he would never set the clock on the VCR, while I as a kid would learn each and every feature of any new device.

‘Now I’m my Father, while 20 to 30 years ago I flew the most complex and advanced aircraft in NATO inventory, but now I’m happy with my 40 yr old avionics. especially when there are hundreds of places that can take it apart and solder in new parts and the repair cost is minuscule compared to Garmin’s one price for any defect, and no one but them can repair it, because there is no repair, it’s just swapping cards.

‘The point of the old BK stuff is that you don’t have to have new, it works just as well as it always has, and you can get it repaired, you don’t have to spend the cost of a new automobile every dozen or so years because what you have is orphaned, and you can’t get it repaired or new software for it

Edited April 29, 2021 by A64Pilot

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

Bendix / King stayed the course, just like most everything else in aviation.

Story I heard was either Gary or Min, maybe both tried to convince the owners of Bendix / King to build a GPS navigator and they refused believing that the VOR system would still be dominant, so they left and made history.

‘Of course Garmin didn’t really build a GPS navigator to start with, they bought Apollo, which was or is a great box but for whatever reason flopped and they had been bought by UPS, you know the brown box package people. Why they bought Apollo I have no idea, I guess to sell it?

But I’m an old guy now and I trained on Bendix / King stuff, know how to use it and it’s familiar, if you ever get task overloaded in bad weather, simple / familiar is very important 

‘My Father used to drive me nuts because he would never set the clock on the VCR, while I as a kid would learn each and every feature of any new device.

‘Now I’m my Father, while 20 to 30 years ago I flew the most complex and advanced aircraft in NATO inventory, but now I’m happy with my 40 yr old avionics. especially when there are hundreds of places that can take it apart and solder in new parts and the repair cost is minuscule compared to Garmin’s one price for any defect, and no one but them can repair it, because there is no repair, it’s just swapping cards.

‘The point of the old BK stuff is that you don’t have to have new, it works just as well as it always has, and you can get it repaired, you don’t have to spend the cost of a new automobile every dozen or so years because what you have is orphaned, and you can’t get it repaired or new software for it

Bendix King dominated the certified GPS market with the KLN90, 90a, 90B and 89B through the 1990's. The KLN94 originally was supposed to be a WAAS unit but the WAAS feature was dropped to finally get a color unit to the market, years behind everyone else.

Garmin was making panel mounted GPS and GPS/COM (GNC series) in the 90's. They were clunky to use and were way behind the KLN Bendix King GPS units. After Garmin recruited most of the BK engineering staff, they introduced the GNS 430 and 530 in the late 90's but almost 10 years after its intro they still couldn't successfully get a WAAS upgrade to market.

In May 2003 UPS/Apollo introduced the first WAAS GPS, the CNX80. In July 2008 UPS bought UPS/Apollo primarily for their WAAS technology and patents. Within a few years the GNS430 and were now upgradeable to WAAS.

[PT20J]

Actually, Apollo was the brand name built by II Morrow in Salem, OR. UPS purchased II Morrow to get vehicle tracking technology and Garmin bought it from them to get WAAS technology. The Salem facility is now called Garmin AT. If you look at the GTN manuals and trainers, you’ll notice a lot of Oregon waypoints in examples.

Garmin’s pirating of King engineers was just retribution for Ed King pirating Collins engineers decades earlier.

I knew Bendix-King was in trouble in 1994 when a recruiter contacted me about an opening for VP of Engineering. I had absolutely no experience in avionics development.

Skip

[jetdriven]

On 4/18/2021 at 12:45 AM, Andy95W said:

I was very much the same.  For years, I have wanted an Aspen/Avidyne combination that would interface with my STEC autopilot.  Every OSH I would stop by both booths to get brochures, learn about updates, and ask questions.

When it came time to buy, I went with dual Garmin G5’s and a new Garmin GPS because I could get the capability I wanted for fewer dollars.  Also- it was the easiest avionics installation I’ve ever done, the interface diagrams and installation manuals were exceptional, and everything just worked.  The slowest part of the process was (is) teaching myself how to use all of the equipment to its fullest.  And if I ever want to upgrade, I have a path to do so.

But there’s a part of me that still wants that Aspen and Avidyne combination.

I waited around several years for the IFD540, and their DFC90 Autopilot,   and, frankly, the GTN750 blows it away. So we bought a used 750 and installed it. Same with their other stuff, it just works.

We're arms deep in another major upgrade to my buddy's PA30 Twin Comanche. It had a GTN750, and a G500. We installed a GI275, a G500 TXI upgrade, and, now, new CB panels, instrument panel, and a second GI275 plus WX500 stormscope. .  It just works. Well, the S-TEC 55x autopilot is an issue, we have to buy an expensive annunciator to display the autopilot nav modes because that is proprietary.  and the autopilot is good, but not great. And god forbid you need to service that thing, overhauls and exchanges are not cheap.

[carusoam]

On 4/27/2021 at 7:29 AM, steingar said:

Curious to read this.  When I started flying Garmin was an upshot and BK ruled GA.  Their products were the most desirable to have in your panel, and most airplanes had them.  Fast forward a few years and Garmin is king of the hill and BK more a joke than anything else.  Who has a new BK box in their panel?  Anyone? 

Steiny,

Keep in mind the context of that comparison...

Jim had mentioned the strength of the Garmin the company... (GRMN)

I added the pseudo competition also being a strong company... (HON)

 

Garmin has become a great consumer products company... that started with avionics...

Honeywell has been an industrial conglomerate that started with the invention of an early thermostat, then moved outwards to manufacture brake systems, Mainframe computers, and turbo systems... they also had turbine engines, turbochargers, and industrial avionics... and once owned a plastics company....  they have recently pared and sold some divisions and sent the asbestos liability packing...

the two companies have done really well since the Great Recession...

When Garmin was a small company, it grew incredibly fast... see the big peak at 2007...

How much of an investment would have be required in Y2K to buy a complete instrument panel today?

PP thoughts only, a response to my friend Jim...

Best regards,

-a-

[jetdriven]

2 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

 but now I’m happy with my 40 yr old avionics. especially when there are hundreds of places that can take it apart and solder in new parts and the repair cost is minuscule compared to Garmin’s one price for any defect, and no one but them can repair it, because there is no repair, it’s just swapping cards.

‘The point of the old BK stuff is that you don’t have to have new, it works just as well as it always has, and you can get it repaired, you don’t have to spend the cost of a new automobile every dozen or so years because what you have is orphaned, and you can’t get it repaired or new software for it

I just sent in a client's KX 165 to be repaired. The screen is not repairable when you have enough digit segments go bad they just suggest you throw it away, but his is still working pretty good, but the nav part stopped working because of the electrolytic capacitors on the board go bad after a bit. I can show you the invoice but it's about 900 bucks to go through a 165 at Bevan, and then you're good for another 5 to 10 years. But it's also just about the cost of flat rate an SL30 which is SMT technology, and does not have failing electrolytic capacitors. Not much cheaper than flat rate repairing a G430W which has a hell of a lot more functionality than a king 165.   KX170B's  really aren't repairable anymore, Narco stuff is dead. So I'm not sure what to do except for an SL30 , or keep your good KX155/165 and pray for rain, or pony up some serious coin and buy a GNC 255.  As far as GPS's go well there's one option may I guess to you can buy 430 or 530 or a GTN something that's it.  I mean, I was in the same position, I had two KX170B/s and a KT76 transponder.  the KT76 cavity failed, I paid 1200$ for a 76A.  then the #1 NAV would only receive the GS inside 9 miles and the #1 COM would mysteriously go silent for 5-10 seconds at a time. so we would tune both nav coms to the same freq all the time.

[PT20J]

In 3 years, I’ve

Repaired the KC191 autopilot computer twice and finally replaced it with a used unit.

Had the trim servo rebuilt.

Replaced a faulty Aspen ACU

Removed a dead KR 87

Finally found and fixed an intermittent edge connector on a KX165

Replaced a WX900 with a defective display backlight with a used unit

Had an EDM 700 repaired

Had to make an owner produced fuel pressure transducer

Replace a faulty GNS430W TAWS card.

I’m hoping that a new Garmin panel will be more reliable. Maybe not though: The GTX 345 had to get a warranty swap out due a bad AHRS,

Skip

[Alan Fox]

53 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

I waited around several years for the IFD540, and their DFC90 Autopilot,   and, frankly, the GTN750 blows it away. So we bought a used 750 and installed it. Same with their other stuff, it just works.

We're arms deep in another major upgrade to my buddy's PA30 Twin Comanche. It had a GTN750, and a G500. We installed a GI275, a G500 TXI upgrade, and, now, new CB panels, instrument panel, and a second GI275 plus WX500 stormscope. .  It just works. Well, the S-TEC 55x autopilot is an issue, we have to buy an expensive annunciator to display the autopilot nav modes because that is proprietary.  and the autopilot is good, but not great. And god forbid you need to service that thing, overhauls and exchanges are not cheap.

Quit your bellyaching , I sold you the WX500 cheaper than anyone else would , and the expensive annunciator also !!! 

[A64Pilot]

When I bought my airplane last month it had a dead KN-53. I bought one with an 8130 for $900 with new faceplate, glide slope board and display. I know displays are no longer made, but there were so many made that there is still some NOS stuff, but I agree it’s going away, sort of like magnesium ruddervators for a Bonanza, there is some, but rare and they bring a premium.

It had a KT-76A that worked, but looked rough, a KT-76C was about $600. That admittedly was more of a cosmetic upgrade than anything, That A is 41 years old and still working, that means something to me, and I have a spare now

‘The Sl-40 in my little Cessna 140 was installed 4 years ago, and almost immediately after install the aircraft was preserved and sat in a hanger for four years under bed sheets.

The plastic faceplate has delaminated, which I found out is extremely common, most all do. Guess what Garmin wants to fix it? They won’t sell the part, right it’s the same if lightning had hilt it and burnt the internals up.

Oh, and Nav 1 in the Mooney is a Garmin 430W, and by the time it will need repairing, I expect Garmin will have orphaned it., and the replacement device to fulfill the same function may be $10,000 by the time it’s installed

Now if I were Garmin, if I orphaned something, I’d offer a generous allowance for a trade up to whatever the new device is, but they don’t. 

‘I suspect it’s due to the way our culture has changed, used to be you had shoes repaired, and TV’s etc. Today’s culture is a throw away one, you don’t have your cell phone or computer fixed anymore, you buy a new one.

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by A64Pilot

[PT20J]

I understand from a Garmin dealer that GNS 430 displays are no longer manufactured, so whatever Garmin has in stock is all there is.

[Jerry 5TJ]

The exchange upgrade program from a GTN750 to a GTN750Xi is a pretty good deal. IMO.  
I offered the Garmin dealer a couple of Bendix ADF receivers and a 2Morrow Loran as well but they didn’t want them. Jeez. No respect.  

[ZuluZulu]

1 hour ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

The exchange upgrade program from a GTN750 to a GTN750Xi is a pretty good deal. IMO.

Where did you have this done?