How Many Hours PIC to Transition into a Mooney (Poll)?

[201er]

16 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Isn’t the key to avoiding a bounce being on speed at touchdown?  I’ve found the Mooney trailing link main gear design to be as good as Cessna’s  “landomatic” gear.  Straight legged Comanche gear and laminar wing make for harder landings when not on speed.

Clarence

 

Nope. Speed doesn't matter. Angle of attack does. Being on speed for yesterday's flight today may be enough to float a thousand feet or bounce by putting it down too soon.

[donkaye]

9 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

It sure looks like trading link landing gear to me. It’s not oleo gear, the pivot point of the gear leg is forward of the axle upon which the tire spins, hence trailing link design.  Maybe yours is different?  
 

Clarence

This is what I think of when I think of trailing link landing gear.  With this setup it's almost impossible to have a bad landing.

[Hank]

5 minutes ago, 201er said:

Nope. Speed doesn't matter. Angle of attack does. Being on speed for yesterday's flight today may be enough to float a thousand feet or bounce by putting it down too soon.

Get off your high horse already, Mike. Airspeed is determined by Angle of Attack. We all know that both vary depending on the actual weight of the plane at the time of landing. So you, Clarence and the rest of us "airspeed"-types are saying the same thing.

[201er]

Just now, Hank said:

Get off your high horse already, Mike. Airspeed is determined by Angle of Attack. We all know that both vary depending on the actual weight of the plane at the time of landing. So you, Clarence and the rest of us "airspeed"-types are saying the same thing.

It's easy to confuse airspeed and groundspeed because they are often coupled. Until they are not. Just on this thread guys were saying they don't need no stinkin ASI, just look outside...

[mike_elliott]

Transitioning to a Mooney (or any plane for that matter) is far more than perfecting the airspeed and parabolic sink rate reduction needed for a greaser. That is simply energy management 101. One should really seek out someone that has expertise in the areo, systems, characteristics, bad temperaments, oddities, and fragilities of the specific plane they wish to transition into. Dont just seek out someone with a herd of time in the plane, but someone can get the knowledge transferred in such a way you are a safe, efficient and well versed in all phases of your new time machine. After all, landings are nothing but another maneuver one has to master. I dont want to sound pompous, as I sure have a lot to learn yet and look forward to my flights with the jeddi's  

[RLCarter]

30 minutes ago, 201er said:

Nope. Speed doesn't matter. Angle of attack does. Being on speed for yesterday's flight today may be enough to float a thousand feet or bounce by putting it down too soon.

Explain 

[Andy95W]

55 minutes ago, donkaye said:

 

With almost 6,400 hours of teaching most in Mooneys, I couldn't disagree more with your last statement .

I said it was helpful.  I also said it wasn’t essential.  I’ve no doubt whatsoever that you provide excellent instruction.  If I were to ever upgrade to an M20K or up, I’d probably give you a call.  Your services would certInly speed the process in mastering the new airplane.

But I take exception with the word essential.  You’re saying that anyone who doesn’t get Mooney specific instruction is going to become a smoking hole in the ground, and I just don’t see that.

[201er]

Just now, RLCarter said:

Explain 

The airspeed at which the airplane will land depends on weight. It can vary up to about 10knots from full gross to as light as can be in a 201. Flying the book number for gross weight when light can lead to a lot of float or a bounce trying to land as though loaded up.

Yet, the angle of attack at landing is always the same. It's better to target an angle of attack than an airspeed. You either need to interpret airspeed to ballpark AOA or you can be precise/simple by using an AOA indicator.

The worst thing to do is to confuse airspeed and groundspeed (which is easy to do). With an unexpected tailwind, you may feel like you are too fast and stall early. Or with a strong headwind, you can try to land early because it feels slow enough to be landing normally. This can lead to excessive float or bounce. High DA can lead to high true airspeed and thus higher groundspeed than you are used to, so again thinking about speed can be confusing and misleading.

In turns it is even more pronounced between wind, groundspeed, weight, and load factor and how it impacts stall speed. The AOA is consistent. Referring to AOA by AOAi can be simpler, more consistent, and less distracting like thinking about speed.

[201er]

Overall an interesting poll and insight into pilot opinions on basic experience level they had and think others should have to get into a Mooney. I'm not sure we learned much or changed anyone's minds, but it's good to know where the community stands.

I may be an outlier in that I think there is a lot to learn and a lot of responsibility on the line here. It's not that I think the Mooney is terribly hard to fly or land (although it can still be a challenge), but when it comes to using these machine for what they are intended to do I think there is a lot of room for misjudgment. Judgement can't necessarily be taught or learned directly. It comes with experience.

I have to admit I am a bit afraid of the potential harm that can occur in a Mooney more so due to poor judgement than poor technique. Hearing stories and losing friends in such a way can do that. Fly safe.

[RobertGary1]

I think we found out that Mooney pilots are quite full of themselves.  It’s a basic tricycle gear plane. Literally the easiest configuration for early pilots. 

[Mooneymite]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

Having flown the Citation, but not the T-34B, does it have oleo struts?  In my opinion that is a big difference between the Mooney and other airplanes.  Those rubber shock discs do make it prone to bouncing much more than those planes whose landing gear are better damped.  If not properly taught how to recover from the "Mooney bounce" by an instructor who is very familiar with it, the new Mooney pilot is much more susceptible to a prop strike.  So, yes, I think it IS important to have a Mooney specific instructor over one unfamiliar with it traits.

Don, I'm not sure what a Citation and the Beechcraft T-34 comparison is about, but regardless of what type of landing gear is installed, landings are not acrobatic maneuvers.  I realize you have a tremendous number of hours in Mooneys, but perhaps you have so many that you've lost your perspective?  I fly all sorts of planes, and I have a hard time agreeing that there's anything special about transitioning to a Mooney.

As @Andy95W so aptly said:   It's an airplane.  Even an average pilot manages to fly a Mooney just fine.

Edited February 26, 2021 by Mooneymite

[Guest]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

This is what I think of when I think of trailing link landing gear.  With this setup it's almost impossible to have a bad landing.

Just like a Mooney, it’s trailing link, the only difference is an oleo versus and shock disc stack for shock absorption.  The bounce characteristics of a Mooney doesn’t mean it’s not trailing link.

Clarence

[Guest]

1 hour ago, 201er said:

Nope. Speed doesn't matter. Angle of attack does. Being on speed for yesterday's flight today may be enough to float a thousand feet or bounce by putting it down too soon.

And you suppose that the Mickey Mouse AoA systems from Spruce are the end all and be all to perfect landings?

Clarence

[RLCarter]

46 minutes ago, 201er said:

The airspeed at which the airplane will land depends on weight. It can vary up to about 10knots from full gross to as light as can be in a 201. Flying the book number for gross weight when light can lead to a lot of float or a bounce trying to land as though loaded up.

Flying the “Numbers” is not just airspeed as you pointed out and yes an AOA indicator will tell you where your wing is but the problem is a very small percentage of aircraft have one. So, that leaves us back to a stabilized approach and looking out the window. 

[RLCarter]

7 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

And you suppose that the Mickey Mouse AoA systems from Spruce are the end all and be all to perfect landings?

Clarence

There’s a guy on the field that installed an AOA on his Super Cub, ended up out in the giggle weeds and almost ground looped it looking at the gauge instead of flying the airplane. I say “Fly the Wing”

[RobertGary1]

The citation is likely the easiest plane on the planet to land. I think part of it is that at vref speed you are already at landing attitude. Only want a slight flare to avoid upsetting passengers but you don’t want to hold it off. Chewing up too much runway but you also touch down fast; above vmc speed so engine failure on go around isn’t deadly. There were about 8 of us in my class and the instructor yelled at nearly everyone to stop flaring so much. 
So maybe pilot needs a few hundred hours in the citation before qualified in the Mooney. 

Edited February 26, 2021 by RobertGary1

[MikeOH]

2 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

I think we found out that Mooney pilots are quite full of themselves.  It’s a basic tricycle gear plane. Literally the easiest configuration for early pilots. 

Hmm, I've found that ALL pilots are quite full of themselves.....It's almost a prerequisite

[gsxrpilot]

4 hours ago, 201er said:

guys were saying they don't need no stinkin ASI, just look outside...

Yep, that's me :-)

[Ibra]

4 hours ago, 201er said:

It's easy to confuse airspeed and groundspeed

Beside design (donuts & heavy nose), I think the Mooney famous bounce tendency is mostly related to (true) ground speed then surface & AoA/VSI on touchdown, it’s just like some low speed flutter  approach & stall will be flown on airspeed obviously...

I used fly M20J to a rough turf surface but only when it’s +20kts headwinds, it will just lands like any Cessna/Piper bouncewise even after hitting bumps, obviously, if one does 100kts on touchdown they will need +60kts headwind to dampen the bounces 

 

Edited February 26, 2021 by Ibra

[donkaye]

5 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Hmm, I've found that ALL pilots are quite full of themselves.....It's almost a prerequisite

When actually teaching, I can convince a person to move to my way of thinking through the action of demonstrations, not words alone.  On a forum like this, unfortunately, words are the only thing that can be used.  Sometimes the certainty that comes through years of experience and expressed through words comes across as arrogance, and for that I apologize.  My goal is to make anyone who cares to listen a better pilot by the most appropriate means available. 

[midlifeflyer]

11 hours ago, Andy95W said:

But I take exception with the word essential.  You’re saying that anyone who doesn’t get Mooney specific instruction is going to become a smoking hole in the ground, and I just don’t see that.

There is great value to an instructor with a lot of experience in a particular make and model.  But there us also a benefit to an instructor with a broad range of experience when doing transitions. When you really think about it, aside from model loyalty, 90% of flying a piston single is the same. A good CFI with broad type  experience which includes the make and model will do a good job.

The problem we encounter most is that the CFI we talk about all the time is the one who has only flown Cessnas. The cross type experience is not there. On top of that, cross type experience alone does not make a good instructor. 

The net result is a very understandable industry preference for dedicated type specific instructors. A friend recently received Bonanza BPPP instructor certification and he has become incredibly busy. OTOH, when someone is referred to me for Mooney training (I am not a Mooney-specific expert), I feel honored.

[tmo]

11 hours ago, M20Doc said:

And you suppose that the Mickey Mouse AoA systems from Spruce are the end all and be all to perfect landings?

With all due respect, one needs the fancy LIDAR height system for that ;-)

[RobertGary1]

8 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Yep, that's me :-)

For my glider rating they took me out to the mountains with zero instruments and had me find my way home. If you’re in tuned to what the picture outside looks like and pitch picture you can estimate altitude and airspeed more than you’d think (Tomato flames only applies to power planes)

[Hank]

13 hours ago, 201er said:

It's easy to confuse airspeed and groundspeed because they are often coupled. Until they are not. Just on this thread guys were saying they don't need no stinkin ASI, just look outside...

If only my CFII had known the risk when covering up my ASI . . . I had no trouble landing at my obstructed 3000' base. And no, I'm not Superman, he lives in the Big City and I avoid those places. 

[gsxrpilot]

4 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

For my glider rating they took me out to the mountains with zero instruments and had me find my way home. If you’re in tuned to what the picture outside looks like and pitch picture you can estimate altitude and airspeed more than you’d think (Tomato flames only applies to power planes)

So maybe it has something to do with my 100 or so cross country hours in hang gliders?