Ocean ditching

[Brian Stuart]

I am intending a 5 hour over water flight in my Mooney M20R. I would be interested in any advice or experience specifically relating to ditching a Mooney or any general info. Also, does anyone have any experience with aircraft egress once the airbags have deployed?  I can see these airbags being a major hinderance when trying to escape a rapidly sinking aircraft.  Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

[aviatoreb]

4 minutes ago, Brian Stuart said:

I am intending a 5 hour over water flight in my Mooney M20R. I would be interested in any advice or experience specifically relating to ditching a Mooney or any general info. Also, does anyone have any experience with aircraft egress once the airbags have deployed?  I can see these airbags being a major hinderance when trying to escape a rapidly sinking aircraft.  Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

Sounds interesting - where you going?

[Brian Stuart]

Brisbane, Australia to Norfolk Island

[alextstone]

9 minutes ago, Brian Stuart said:

I am intending a 5 hour over water flight in my Mooney M20R. I would be interested in any advice or experience specifically relating to ditching a Mooney or any general info. Also, does anyone have any experience with aircraft egress once the airbags have deployed?  I can see these airbags being a major hinderance when trying to escape a rapidly sinking aircraft.  Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

Hi Brian!  No real world experience here but I've thought about it extensively.  My wife and I make periodic water crossings up to 2-3 hours in length in a Bravo.  Consider investing in Switlik vests as these are comfortable enough to wear continuously during flight.   Other gear to have:  A raft with a cover, water, high calorie density food, EPIRB beacon, VHF radio, Satellite phone or text device, knife or medical EMT scissors in the pocket on the vest to cut belts or airbags.   My wife insists on packing shark repellent, for which she received much grief.  If we ever encounter a shark, she swears she will not share it with me....

 

BTW, please share photos and flight logs of your trip on MS!

 

Alex

Edited February 14, 2021 by alextstone

[Hank]

@andrew has some experience in the water, but without egress from a sinking plane. He has much good advice on preparation, gear, routing, practice, etc., for over water flights, although much of his experience is in the cold North Sea.

Have a great trip! All I know about Norfolk Island is their unusual but attractive pine trees. Waiting for a photo-filled pirep!

[jlunseth]

When I cross to the Bahamas I carry about the same thing. We can rent vests and a raft in FL for the crossing. I have a small water tight roll up bag that I store everything else in. Another good thing to have is a glass breaker, usually heavy metal, sharp point. Never tested it on plexi though. I also have a SpareAir, which is a small scuba unit that provides just a little air. Not sure how much of all that you would be able to get out of the aircraft in the event of a ditching though, the vests are the most important part.

[irishpilot]

Vest, raft, line of sight radio, 406 beacon, SATCOM radio if your flightpath has coverage, extra water and food. Also have a knife on you to deal with the airbags.

As far as ditching goes, in calm seas, ditch into the wind. For normal sea states, ditch parallel to the swells. I'd also think about opening the door prior to impact. If the fuselage tweaks, you'll have a really hard time escaping. Here's some good info: https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Ditching:_Fixed_Wing_Aircraft

[squeaky.stow]

Hi Brian,

FWIW, here is my recommendation for the most important preparation you can make for an over-water flight. Take an under-water escape training course. More importantly, if you plan to have a passenger, make sure they take it too, as they are between you and the door. Here is why:

Years ago, when I was flying military helicopters with the RCAF Reserves, we were all required to take one of these courses. I was absolutely dreading it because my personal phobia is being trapped under water and that is what they make you do. In a helicopter ditching you will inevitably end up inverted due to the design, so it’s critical to have this training. In a Mooney it is more likely that you will be right side up (which is still upside down in Oz!) but there is still a possibility in heavy seas that you will flip, and even if you don’t, there will be a lot of unexpected mayhem going on as you try to egress.

Despite my fears, the course I took was by far the best survival course I have taken and gave me tremendous confidence that if I ever did have to ditch, even at night in rough seas, I would probably survive. But what I also learned is that if I had NOT taken that course, I would without a shadow of doubt have died in a ditching. Even in good conditions. What I mean by this is that you and your passenger’s survival instincts will kick in as soon as you hit the water and they will all be focused on getting out of the airplane. And every one of those instincts are the WRONG thing to do, and will result in panic and probably death. The course trains you to suppress those instincts, slow down, and methodically extract yourself without getting disoriented. You can read about it all you want, but there is no substitute for practicing and building muscle memory, and that is what that course does, building your confidence step by step so that you overcome your fears. By the end of the course I was having a blast trying to challenge myself with blocked exits and simulated panicking passengers.

In Canada, all passengers who work on offshore oil rigs have to take this training, so there are several civilian companies that offer it. I am guessing that there are similar companies in Australia. Another benefit of the course is that you get to play around with all of your survival gear and discover just how good or bad it is when you have to  use it for real. In later years when I was flying biz jets, I convinced my boss that we should take this training. After spending a few hours in the pool struggling with the cheap survival raft that we had, he went out and bought better survival equipment. It will probably never be used, but......

Good luck with your trip. It sounds like a great adventure!

Regards,

Mark

[aviatoreb]

I always wondered about water ditching - ok so if I would bring all the survival goodies.  Covered inflatable raft, water, food, beacons, etc.  Wearing a immersion suit and life vest. Then the worst happens and you need to ditch.  You do a great job and despite ditching in swelling waves the airplane is actually upright and briefly floating and you are only slightly injured and you scurry out in time before it sinks. Can you be sure that you can get all those big goodies out of the tight space airplane while it is sinking? Or do I just watch as the airplane sinks with my raft and goodies on board?  

Seems like the p -elt at least should be lashed to the pilot during the crossing.

I have a p-elt by the way, just for in case of ditching in wilderness - separate from my built in elt.  But thinking about ditching on land.

[exM20K]

@aviatoreb  these guys are not too far from you.

https://www.survivalsystemsinc.com

I’ve thought about taking a course there before. Probably worth the effort to find the time for me.

-dan

[amillet]

https://www.dunkyou.com
 

Brenda and I took this training several years ago 

[carusoam]

Andrew is the right resource... for prepping for the flight... but his MS address... @Hyett6420

Its a Mooney... Plan for the worst... expect the best...

Another MSer that plans casual over water flights  and gave me the best prior to flight briefing is Mike @201er...

One MSer has the most trans Atlantic flight in a Mooney that I know of...   @flumag

Actual ditching of a Mooney video... has been posted around here... I think @Gagarin may know the source... well planned, in advance, on a long cross ocean flight... came up short, bad headwinds, landed next to a lightship/ADF source...

Go O!

PP thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

[Jerry 5TJ]

Discussed this in 2015 before crossing Lake Michigan to OSH.  Even in July the water temperature is in the low 60F range.  
 

If you can not get out of the water and into a raft then the statistics aren’t good.  

[GeeBee]

 

[Oscar Avalle]

When I fly over water (which I do a lot) I try to take a raft, 406 and life-west. If I can I try to stay close to land, but not always feasible. I also take a satélite phone with me for longer over water trips. However, make sure that you know the PIN number of the phone. Last time I took one, I wanted to call ahead to tell people that I was getting close and I noticed that I did not remember my PIN!!!

 

Also, Mode S helps a lot to be tracked even when there is no AdsB around.

 

Share pictures please

 

Oscar

 

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N9341V/history/20210205/1756Z/MSSS/MSSS

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[squeaky.stow]

If you have a diversity ads-b antenna, the coverage is now worldwide. Full implementation is still in process but the satellite network is in place. 
Maybe @ohdubhas some more insight on the timing.

https://www.navcanada.ca/EN/products-and-services/Pages/Space-based-ADS-B.aspx

[ohdub]

1 hour ago, squeaky.stow said:

If you have a diversity ads-b antenna, the coverage is now worldwide. Full implementation is still in process but the satellite network is in place. 
Maybe @ohdubhas some more insight on the timing.

https://www.navcanada.ca/EN/products-and-services/Pages/Space-based-ADS-B.aspx

Unfortunately I don't have any additional insight. I don't know which ANS providers are currently using space based ADS-B, or which ones will in the future. My understanding is that the data is there so even if ATC isn't using ADS-B for the provision of service, in the event of an accident, the last reported position can be looked up. Someone would need to know to ask Aireon for the information however.

[Ibra]

Mooney AFM/POH does not say much on ditching but if anything like many other similar aircraft it’s gear up, full flaps on flat attitude into winds in calm sea or parallel to swells from the wind side, getting out has to be prepared & executed on few dry runs but door open before ditch and throw one single bag: everything inside is useful and can float & work in water 

While floating, anything it takes to be found (ELT/PLB & SatPhone & GarminInReach all tested & Flares) and to survive for 4h to 2 days depending on water temps (Raft & Jackets & water/food)

On a 2h leg at fast Mooney speeds you will be out of traditional SAR helicopters range for quick rescue, your pick up will be some  existing commercial/navy boats or slow coast guard boats called on duty (to manage expectations, they do 20kts you do 180kts ), so worth checking the typical commercial maritime routes and their regular activity while planning (it’s all online), also just before/while flying, I think they don’t move that much, so you should know where to point the aircraft nose if you have a doubt or signs of troubles 

Good luck & share the trip !

Edited February 15, 2021 by Ibra

[201Steve]

I just bought a SPOT gen4 SAT messenger with GPS today at Bass Pro Shop with a Christmas gift card I got. I’ve been to Bahamas and will go back. slowly adding to my water ditch pack.  The raft is the hardest justification for a short time out of glide range. Can rent, but I can make it in under 3 hours from home base. It’s an extra stop. They are expensive. I’ve considered a pool raft and a Co2 cartridge 

[G-SLOT]

For my "short" over water flights, e.g. UK to Holland, the over-water portion of which is 100nm, I wear a dry suit (done up all the way) and a life jacket to which I have attached a PLB and a small box of flares. The life jacket is the waistcoat type (comfortable to wear) and has been retrofitted with a spray hood. On the seat next to me is a 4-person covered life raft (it's very compact and only weighs about 12lbs). I have a seatbelt cutter on my keychain (which is a good reminder for me to rethink that since I had this installed...)

For my much longer flights (e.g. 500+ miles over water), I have various supplies packed into a waterproof bag including high calorie food, water, space blankets, etc. Some may think this is overkill but I also carry a motorcycle helmet to protect my head during an impact. I plan to put my satellite locator/communicator and handheld VHF radio into the waterproof bag on the way down too.

The ditching courses are OK but most are based on helicopter airframes. The best part of the course I did was being able to learn how to get into my type of raft as well as the importance of attaching the raft to you before inflating it (as they tend to blow away otherwise). 

Over time, I have become uncertain as to whether I would be able to grab my waterproof bag during the scramble to exit the aircraft and I have thought of wearing some sort of fishing vest between my dry suit and lifejacket into which I could wrap a few essential items and supplies in waterproof material (cling film, etc). 

It's also important to ensure that your raft, jacket, PLB battery and other equipment are in date.

The areas over which I have flown do not have issues with sharks but, if they did, I would likely carry shark repellent or a couple of these devices: Sharkbanz

Many people will tell you to put your dry suit and lifejacket on before you get into the plane and that it will be difficult/impossible to do so in the plane. Obviously, in an emergency, it's the last thing you want to worry about but, while flying (solo) in my Ovation, I have successfully gone from wearing normal clothes to being fully dressed in my dry suit and life jacket (when a winter time reroute gave me a 100nm water crossing instead of the 20nm route I initially thought I would fly). You should experiment with this on the ground and, especially if it is hot in the ground, it's not impossible to keep the suit off your torso until you climb higher.

Keep a watch on 121.5 (all the airliners do) - you'll likely be able to reach someone there even if you're out of VHF range of ATC.

ATC aside, have someone watching your satellite pings with a list of numbers to call if they see something worrying. Most require a subscription and some testing, all of which should be sorted well before your trip.

If you've had any maintenance done before the trip, fly a bit to ensure no maintenance induced failures are lurking under the cowl or elsewhere. Top the oil before you go and be familiar with your engine's usual operating parameters (I'm sure you already are but knowing that your oil sits at 64psi and where your CHTs, EGTs and oil temps normally sit is comforting). Also keep a written log of fuel usage and tank switches - the Ovation's fuel indicators are much better than in many other aircraft but I learnt to do this through experience (fortunately I only discovered my mistake when I was safely on the ground).

Lastly, I've read all of the ferry pilot books I could get my hands on. Not quite Harry Potter but good, fun reads that'll make you laugh out loud in places and give you some great practical insights (Shark Bait by James Creighton, So You Want to be a Ferry Pilot by Spike Nasmyth, Rubber Suits & Lukewarm Soup by Steve Randall, Air Vagabonds by Anthony Vallone and, if you're ever going near Greenland: Frozen in Time by Mitchell Zuckoff). Looking up my list of books on the Amazon website, I've just discovered and ordered Ferry Pilot by Kerry McCauley.

Good luck with the trip!

[GeeBee]

My Coast Guard friends tell me if you have a strobe and a 406 PLRB they can pick you right up. At night they can see a lit cigarette all the way to the horizon with NV. The only thing is: You have to survive until they get there. So you have to consider how far you are out from rescue, what are the water temps as well as the local wildlife and consider the local weather for rescue. Not much they can do with pea soup fog on the water. You can ditch just west of SF bay for instance, close to rescue, but there is a reason why they call that intersection, "shark". You are smack in the middle of a huge population of great whites, so you're going to need a "bigger boat". Coastal waters and bays, PDQ. Blue water longer, maybe a lot longer. Once beyond the range of helos, you have to wait for a boat. At the very minimum the CG can get a fixed wing out to you to drop a raft, which you already should have. When I used to do trans-pacific ferry work I wore my "Gumby suit" in the seat and had a raft. The reality about rafts, especially in a Mooney is you need them very close to you to be effective. Plan on at least the rear seat and even better the right seat so you can push it out with you. You saw in the above video how fast the Mooney sank. You can rent a raft but the problem with rentals is you cannot practice deploying them. It seems simple until you have to do so in the dark or on a pitching sea. I would second the above recommendation of practicing in a "dunk tank" with your actual survival gear. Train like you fight, fight like you train. 

[Ibra]

30 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

Once beyond the range of helos, you have to wait for a boat. At the very minimum the CG can get a fixed wing out to you to drop a raft, which you already should have

As long as it’s not the 100pax raft 
 

One local ferry pilot ditched in North Atlantic while delivering a Rockwell Commander, he managed to escape in his small raft with all equipment, both ELT/PLB signals were picked by Portuguese coast guards who sent navy boat as well as CG C130, the Hercules dropped him a 30pax raft with more supplies, as he transferred to the larger raft, he lost all his equipment and supplies in rough sea, then spent next day hanging to his life on that big flexible 3D surface and high swells until the navy ship picked him up (he still in the business but looking back he judged that staying in middle of 6pax rafts is way more comfortable than in the corner of 30pax rafts with no “counter-weights” in the other ends)

 

[pwnel]

20 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Discussed this in 2015 before crossing Lake Michigan to OSH.  Even in July the water temperature is in the low 60F range.  
 

If you can not get out of the water and into a raft then the statistics aren’t good.  

Finally a benefit! My COVID work-from-home induced extra pounds is a life-saver.  Buys me several hours of survival!! :-) 

[steingar]

Sounds like a great fight.  Just make certain your affairs are in order...

[GeeBee]

20 minutes ago, pwnel said:

Finally a benefit! My COVID work-from-home induced extra pounds is a life-saver.  Buys me several hours of survival!! :-) 

That is why, if you notice all the Nort Atlantic routes have the really senior flight attendants on them 

Did I say that!