With or Without Flaps?

[MBDiagMan]

I would like to hear people’s opinions and rationalities regarding landing their Mooney with and without flaps.

I landed my C with no flaps and it just worked great.  When I got the F, a good friend of mine did much of my transition.  An F100 pilot and then airlines for much of the rest of his career.  Great pilot and great guy.  His opinion was that when you go to a complex plane you land it with flaps so that’s what I’ve been doing ever since.  I had

After a three month down period sorting out the landing gear, I got back in again and landed it not too bad, but have dealt with some gusty winds which led me to discussion with another life long pro pilot.  He contended that if I preferred landing with no flaps, that’s what I should do, but whatever I do, do it consistently that way.

I think I know the pros and cons, but I think I’m at a point where I will be flying it a lot more and need to make a choice and stick with it.

Looking forward to hearing your experiences and pros and cons.

[Niko182]

Any runway under 2500ft is full flaps for me. Anything over that, and it just depends how I feel that day. This isn't a choice that requires consistancy. Put the flaps down if you feel like you need them or want them. 

[Brian E.]

Whoooo...you're gonna crack open the forums with this discussion as there will be a number of opinions.  Personally, I've gone the whole evolution,  Used to land full flaps most of the time and only used no flaps when strong (+15kts) crosswinds were present.  When I started commercial training my habit pattern switched to using flaps only after the runway landing point was assured.  And with that I would sometimes land with no flaps, half or full flaps.  Ultimately this was a function of how strong the wind was even if I adjusted my base turn accordingly. Ultimately you just have to be aware of the impact of your flap selection to your sink rate, approach/landing attitude, float and elevator sensitivity.  I learned quickly that with no flaps, near the bottom of the backside of the power curve (or no power curve) a little extra pitch could induce a pretty hefty sink rank even in ground effect.  I would suggest you practice each of the configurations and get a feel for each.  Then hopefully you'll feel comfortable adjusting your flap usage based on conditions at the time. 

[gsxrpilot]

Flaps are alway on condition for me. I do think it's better to get practice with all configurations rather than just stick with one method. I've used all flap configurations enough that I'm confident you could call the flap setting on short final and I could comply and land the Mooney nicely.

So I guess I'm with @Niko182 in that it's whatever I feel like at the time. 

FWIW... taking off is the same for me between no flaps and take-off flaps.

[Yetti]

Manual says as needed.   They are one more trick in the energy management bag that can be pulled out as needed.   Usually half flaps on touchdown. 

[kortopates]

It’s easier to land with less than full flaps when performing the round out. It’s a technique I introduce new pilots when they’re having challenges too - to help make progress. But we don’t stop there.

 

Although it varies how much and where I’ll put in flaps, on a VFR landing without a significant crosswind I always will land full flaps so I am going as slow as possible. If I can’t, it time to practice a go around. But add a strong xwind and it’ll be at most 1/2 flaps. About my only exception is the 180 power off landing - but when it’s working out well it’ll be full flaps before the plane is on the runway but that is really when I treat them as optional.

 

Landing IFR with very poor vis at near minimums i won’t make any configuration changes after breaking out to land.

 

Personally I think every pilot should feel very comfortable at landing with full flaps without a cross wind - so did the DPE that signed you off on your private check ride holding you to ACS standards. Keep practicing and/or get some Dual with a good Mooney CFI to help you. You’ll get it! Your short field performance depends on it.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[carusoam]

+1 for as required...

Cross winds are a good reason to use T/O flaps...

And, stall speeds are reduced with flaps... something I like for being in the pattern making turns...

Adding flaps includes needing to trim... which can take up time and space... so I go all in with what ever flaps I’m going to use from the beginning of descent from the TPA...

 

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

I've been landing my C with at least Takeoff flaps for more than a dozen years. Here's what the Owners Manual says:

Note Step #9 and the paragraph at the bottom, that's exactly what I do. Flaps are another control to use to maintain your desired glideslope to landing.

With a few hundred C hours under my belt, I flew an F several times, and the landings are quite different. It's only 10" longer and a little bit heavier with 2 souls and full fuel, but Takeoff Flap landings are not pretty. Full Flaps, or Landing Flaps, or whatever the indicator calls them, are definitely the way to go.

Field length has nothing to do with it. I spent ten years at two fields, 3000' obstructed on both ends and 3200' with open approaches (but almost a cliff when approaching 13); my first seven years as well as PPL training were at the first--no problem.

@MBDiagMan, land your F with full flaps, it's much nicer (and it's not your former C). Practice no-flap landings just in case, though, because you never know . . . . . 

I reserve Full Flap landings for whenever I'm too high, as so often on calm days. On really windy days, I may retract a little flap from the Takeoff setting that I select entering downwind. Crosswinds usually call for less flap and the upwind wing low approach on final.

[MikeOH]

I'm in the 'as needed' camp, and not a fanatic about any particular method.  Having said that, my 'normal' practice is full flaps on final after having the field made.  I normally put in TO flaps when I'm ready to turn base.  Strong winds and I'll leave flaps at TO.  I can land clean but have never seen a reason to.  Ideally, I want to touch down at the slowest speed possible.... I wish I was that good, though

[PT20J]

It might be best to recall what flaps do:

1. They reduce stall speed allowing a slower touchdown speed reducing runway length required to stop and reducing tire wear.

2. They change the effective angle of incidence allowing a lower pitch attitude improving visibility.

3. They increase drag allowing a steeper descent for a given power setting.

So, I use full flaps when I want any of those attributes (which is just about always).

Skip

[Pilot boy]

So I’m a new M20E owner having just bought it this summer.  That said, I’ve done about 260+ landings in over 110 hrs (oh wait that was another forum question on here).....so I’m a new hand getting experience fast.  I’m basically check ride ready for the commercial check ride. The reason I say that is due to a lot of experimentation with the flap settings to get the accuracy landings down like the short field (-0, +100 ft) and power off 180s(-0, +200 ft)  It’s great for learning what your Mooney can really do.  Since mine is a short body also I think flight characteristics will be the same.  As a caveat I also fly in the upper Midwest and often have winds of 15G25 knots.  
Overall I really prefer 2 pumps or 15 degrees of flaps on the E model.  I found this is gentler on the landing (greasers) but not as much float. You can get good landings with full flaps but I don’t think it’s quite as easy and I don’t need to stop in 1500 ft.  The biggest downside I found to full flaps was that in the crosswinds it keeps me in that floating flare danger zone for a little long and then you have to be cross controlling for the crosswind and even so, in a good crosswind you could drift toward one side if the runway as you lose speed and controls lose their effectiveness.  So generally I do all landings half flaps just for preference.

That said for the commercial short field I have to use full flaps and essentially buzz the stall horn at touchdown and it’s entirely possible (especially in calm winds) to land precisely on a centerline stripe you select.  So with calmer winds or direct headwinds I can come on final at 80 mph, 75 over the REILs and plant it at the 2nd stripe.  I don’t recommend this in strong winds but the buzzer in the E doesn’t go off until the bottom of the white arc.  Kinda off topic but it is what it is...

Now, the power off 180 in the E was quite challenging for me to get down.  I kept floating or coming up short.  The best advice I received on this forum was to play with the ground effect to plant it on the right spot.  So I was practicing the power offs with the “use flaps as needed” approach they teach you for the Cessna drivers doing their p off 180s.  In the Mooney this is more tricky.  I found if I maintained best glide of 105 mph or so and then attempted to add flaps right inside the 100 mph white arc I would usually float right past the touchdown point of the big white touchdown bars (200 ft).  Especially with full flaps I would float a long ways.  So for the power off 180 I come in low and fast over the threshold about 50 ft and 95 mph over the REILs, get into ground effect quickly so you don’t stall and just hold the flare until the spot you want to touch down comes up.  No flaps.  It works amazingly well.  I really hesitate to do even 10 degrees of flaps for the power off 180.  So what I noticed was just that full flaps with speed and you’ll float quite a ways, no flaps and you just land at what feels a pretty high speed.  Like I said bit off topic but the power off 180 really showed the effects of flap settings.

[PT20J]

The Mooney has effective slotted flaps of wider wing span than most airplanes. If you compare the calibrated Vs1 and Vso stall speeds to other single engine GA airplanes, you’ll find a larger spread in the Mooney than with most others. In other words, full Mooney flaps are more effective than many other airplanes we may have flown. The most common problem with landing Mooneys with full flaps is not adjusting airspeed for lower than gross landing weights. If it floats it was too fast. 

Skip

[carusoam]

Oddly, it took an engineer / Mooney pilot / CFII to recognize the weight/speed sensitivity and simplify the decision making to a simple chart... Ask DonKaye about the landing video and its collection of teaching materials...

The modern POH is good with data... 

But, there is a book of information that could be organized from it for a more easy reading for everyone format...

For every phase of flight... from how we test the brakes before taxiing, to how we lean the mixture while taxiing, how the run-up can be done to collect better data....   why we look for an rpm increase while we are shutting down...

Kind of like Mooney Flying 102...

Some of us used to still believe in overshooting the altitude to come back on altitude and fly faster... an OWT called the step... 

We could write chapters every month... about modern techniques of Mooney flying... or collect them from The MooneyFlyer where many MSers are writing each month...

Might be coming up on a time where a new Mooney book could be written... Larry Ball’s daughter is familiar with this type of effort...

MS has a few pro writers...

Best regards,

-a-

[RobertGary1]

In my F the flap and gear speed are nearly the same so no advantage to landing without flaps.  I can hold 130 knots on final but eventually the gear has to come out and the jets have to accept it. 

[MBDiagMan]

21 hours ago, kortopates said:

It’s easier to land with less than full flaps when performing the round out. It’s a technique I introduce new pilots when they’re having challenges too - to help make progress. But we don’t stop there.

 

Although it varies how much and where I’ll put in flaps, on a VFR landing without a significant crosswind I always will land full flaps so I am going as slow as possible. If I can’t, it time to practice a go around. But add a strong xwind and it’ll be at most 1/2 flaps. About my only exception is the 180 power off landing - but when it’s working out well it’ll be full flaps before the plane is on the runway but that is really when I treat them as optional.

 

Landing IFR with very poor vis at near minimums i won’t make any configuration changes after breaking out to land.

 

Personally I think every pilot should feel very comfortable at landing with full flaps without a cross wind - so did the DPE that signed you off on your private check ride holding you to ACS standards. Keep practicing and/or get some Dual with a good Mooney CFI to help you. You’ll get it! Your short field performance depends on it.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I did my private checkride in a taildragger, not a Mooney.  I’m reasonably confident with full flap landings, but I can land better with no flaps.

[Niko182]

Just now, MBDiagMan said:

I did my private checkride in a taildragger, not a Mooney.  I’m reasonably confident with full flap landings, but I can land better with no flaps.

There you go. Land with no flaps then. But make sure you stay confident landing with full flaps. 

[Ragsf15e]

19 hours ago, Pilot boy said:

So I’m a new M20E owner having just bought it this summer.  That said, I’ve done about 260+ landings in over 110 hrs (oh wait that was another forum question on here).....so I’m a new hand getting experience fast.  I’m basically check ride ready for the commercial check ride. The reason I say that is due to a lot of experimentation with the flap settings to get the accuracy landings down like the short field (-0, +100 ft) and power off 180s(-0, +200 ft)  It’s great for learning what your Mooney can really do.  Since mine is a short body also I think flight characteristics will be the same.  As a caveat I also fly in the upper Midwest and often have winds of 15G25 knots.  
Overall I really prefer 2 pumps or 15 degrees of flaps on the E model.  I found this is gentler on the landing (greasers) but not as much float. You can get good landings with full flaps but I don’t think it’s quite as easy and I don’t need to stop in 1500 ft.  The biggest downside I found to full flaps was that in the crosswinds it keeps me in that floating flare danger zone for a little long and then you have to be cross controlling for the crosswind and even so, in a good crosswind you could drift toward one side if the runway as you lose speed and controls lose their effectiveness.  So generally I do all landings half flaps just for preference.

That said for the commercial short field I have to use full flaps and essentially buzz the stall horn at touchdown and it’s entirely possible (especially in calm winds) to land precisely on a centerline stripe you select.  So with calmer winds or direct headwinds I can come on final at 80 mph, 75 over the REILs and plant it at the 2nd stripe.  I don’t recommend this in strong winds but the buzzer in the E doesn’t go off until the bottom of the white arc.  Kinda off topic but it is what it is...

Now, the power off 180 in the E was quite challenging for me to get down.  I kept floating or coming up short.  The best advice I received on this forum was to play with the ground effect to plant it on the right spot.  So I was practicing the power offs with the “use flaps as needed” approach they teach you for the Cessna drivers doing their p off 180s.  In the Mooney this is more tricky.  I found if I maintained best glide of 105 mph or so and then attempted to add flaps right inside the 100 mph white arc I would usually float right past the touchdown point of the big white touchdown bars (200 ft).  Especially with full flaps I would float a long ways.  So for the power off 180 I come in low and fast over the threshold about 50 ft and 95 mph over the REILs, get into ground effect quickly so you don’t stall and just hold the flare until the spot you want to touch down comes up.  No flaps.  It works amazingly well.  I really hesitate to do even 10 degrees of flaps for the power off 180.  So what I noticed was just that full flaps with speed and you’ll float quite a ways, no flaps and you just land at what feels a pretty high speed.  Like I said bit off topic but the power off 180 really showed the effects of flap settings.

I’m pretty much with you on most of this, and your power off 180 might be ok on your check, but maybe worth practicing to nail a spot with some flaps.  If you no kidding lose the engine and land in a field, you need to be at the lowest possible speed at touchdown.  Velocity is squared in the energy equation, so extra velocity “hurts” at that point.  You can still play with ground effect, that’s reasonable, but try to get on a spot and very slow for touchdown.  If winds are properly analyzed, it is definitely possible to do.

[jaylw314]

38 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

I’m pretty much with you on most of this, and your power off 180 might be ok on your check, but maybe worth practicing to nail a spot with some flaps.  If you no kidding lose the engine and land in a field, you need to be at the lowest possible speed at touchdown.  Velocity is squared in the energy equation, so extra velocity “hurts” at that point.  You can still play with ground effect, that’s reasonable, but try to get on a spot and very slow for touchdown.  If winds are properly analyzed, it is definitely possible to do.

Landing slower is always easier on the plane in terms of wear-and-tear, and landing with less energy on every routine landing means that when I someday goof and run into something unintentionally on landing, it will hurt a lot less on that day.

On the other hand, it's not like landing with no or partial flaps is qualitatively different than full flaps (it's just a difference in degree), so it just needs a little practice to stay comfortable with them.

[kortopates]

4 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

I did my private checkride in a taildragger, not a Mooney.  I’m reasonably confident with full flap landings, but I can land better with no flaps.

Very few do their private PPL in a complex Mooney - although I am training a private student in his J now. Regardless, there is probably a good reason for why you're more comfortable without flaps. My first thought would be trimming the aircraft, but IMO this is something best to take up with your Mooney transition CFI.  

[FlyinAggie14]

In my F I land with no flaps 90% of the time.  I find little change in speed and a lot better control in keeping the nose off the ground without flaps.  The exception is when landing over an obstacle or very short runway <2000 ft.  99% of my takeoffs are without flaps as well.  

[gsxrpilot]

On 12/18/2020 at 10:46 PM, Pilot boy said:

Now, the power off 180 in the E was quite challenging for me to get down.  I kept floating or coming up short.  The best advice I received on this forum was to play with the ground effect to plant it on the right spot.  So I was practicing the power offs with the “use flaps as needed” approach they teach you for the Cessna drivers doing their p off 180s.  In the Mooney this is more tricky.  I found if I maintained best glide of 105 mph or so and then attempted to add flaps right inside the 100 mph white arc I would usually float right past the touchdown point of the big white touchdown bars (200 ft).  Especially with full flaps I would float a long ways.  So for the power off 180 I come in low and fast over the threshold about 50 ft and 95 mph over the REILs, get into ground effect quickly so you don’t stall and just hold the flare until the spot you want to touch down comes up.  No flaps.  It works amazingly well.  I really hesitate to do even 10 degrees of flaps for the power off 180.  So what I noticed was just that full flaps with speed and you’ll float quite a ways, no flaps and you just land at what feels a pretty high speed.  Like I said bit off topic but the power off 180 really showed the effects of flap settings.

Interesting... I generally prefer no flaps or just take off flaps on my landings and rarely use full flaps. But I did my Commercial check ride a couple of months ago and had the opposite experience. I did all my power off 180's with full flaps. And I actually found it to be one of the easier maneuvers on the Commercial PTS. I'd bring it right down into ground effect and then really stretch the glide until I made my mark and then drop it on. It worked every single time.

It might be a difference between the short body and the mid-body Mooneys but I wouldn't think so.

[Pilot boy]

5 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

I’m pretty much with you on most of this, and your power off 180 might be ok on your check, but maybe worth practicing to nail a spot with some flaps.  If you no kidding lose the engine and land in a field, you need to be at the lowest possible speed at touchdown.  Velocity is squared in the energy equation, so extra velocity “hurts” at that point.  You can still play with ground effect, that’s reasonable, but try to get on a spot and very slow for touchdown.  If winds are properly analyzed, it is definitely possible to do.

I understand exactly what you’re saying and I probably wouldn’t recommend no flaps in real life emergency also, due to the higher forward speed but the purpose right now is to pass the power off 180 for commercial and for some reason it’s just easier for me to not use any flaps to nail the exact spot.  I keep floating too easily, too much with full flaps, could probably get by with half flaps but the no flap way is just more accurate with the 200 ft requirements for the exam.  I will go out in a week or two and try some higher approaches with flaps to see though, maybe I can get a method down that uses flaps also.  Part of the problem for practice has been weight solo vs dual with the examiner but I finally have a good ballast solution so it’s easy to check different configurations and settings.

[Pilot boy]

32 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Interesting... I generally prefer no flaps or just take off flaps on my landings and rarely use full flaps. But I did my Commercial check ride a couple of months ago and had the opposite experience. I did all my power off 180's with full flaps. And I actually found it to be one of the easier maneuvers on the Commercial PTS. I'd bring it right down into ground effect and then really stretch the glide until I made my mark and then drop it on. It worked every single time.

It might be a difference between the short body and the mid-body Mooneys but I wouldn't think so.

On the power off 180s, give me more detail, when are you putting in partial and then full flaps?  I have to be very careful with flap use as I’ll come up short if I put them in too soon.  Are you turning immediately from downwind to base? How high and what speed over the end of the runway?  What touchdown point were you using?  For the short field landings with the ability to use throttle, full flaps is easy but I seem to just float right by my drop point on the power offs.  I may be coming in too fast on final for the power off 180 as I’m trying to maintain best glide of around 105 mph until I’m pretty close to the runway, 95 mph over the lights with no flaps I can hit the touchdown markers every time.  Though I’m now finding out the DPE doesn’t want to test in the Mooney as I have no copilot brakes...so I might be going back to the 172 anyway.....

[gsxrpilot]

9 hours ago, Pilot boy said:

On the power off 180s, give me more detail, when are you putting in partial and then full flaps?  I have to be very careful with flap use as I’ll come up short if I put them in too soon.  Are you turning immediately from downwind to base? How high and what speed over the end of the runway?  What touchdown point were you using?  For the short field landings with the ability to use throttle, full flaps is easy but I seem to just float right by my drop point on the power offs.  I may be coming in too fast on final for the power off 180 as I’m trying to maintain best glide of around 105 mph until I’m pretty close to the runway, 95 mph over the lights with no flaps I can hit the touchdown markers every time.  Though I’m now finding out the DPE doesn’t want to test in the Mooney as I have no copilot brakes...so I might be going back to the 172 anyway.....

• I start at pattern altitude, 1000 ft above the runway.
• Drop the gear at the midpoint on the downwind. 
• Pull the power off, abeam the thousand foot marks (Captains bars)
• First notch of flaps somewhere on the base leg
• I think I'm flying the base and final legs at 80 knots
• Full flaps once the runway is made
• The key is to think you're coming up short then hold it off in ground effect longer than you think you can. 
• A lot of back pressure to hold it off about 2 ft off the ground
• Release some back pressure as soon as the stripes are made, and the mains will touch almost immediately.

Anyway, it works well for me.

[Brian E.]

13 hours ago, Pilot boy said:

  I may be coming in too fast on final for the power off 180 as I’m trying to maintain best glide of around 105 mph until I’m pretty close to the runway, 95 mph over the lights with no flaps I can hit the touchdown markers every time.  Though I’m now finding out the DPE doesn’t want to test in the Mooney as I have no copilot brakes...so I might be going back to the 172 anyway.....

I've done a number of p-offs bombing in at mid-90s/almost 100 and can pretty much say that is too fast/too much energy.  That's the game here-energy management.  My technique is similar to Paul's is except I withhold flaps and use flaps only once I know I have enough energy. This Fall I practiced a lot with LLWS and stronger winds (40 downwind push at pattern altitude and 15 - 20 at airport elevation) that required turning base within 3 secs of being abeam the landing point.  Early flap deployment would have precluded from making the runway.  My only absolutes are that I would never turn base without the gear down and I would never pull the prop back to stretch the glide--everything else is fair game.

  Disappointing that your DPE feels a needs for copilot brakes.  I'd find another DPE before going back to the 172 as the Mooney is way easier to fly.

 

Where are you out of @Pilot boy?