Best speed upgrade for 64 M20 E

[Pilot boy]

Hi again all,

    I’ve had my new to me M20E for about 3 months now and enjoying it much.  Great machine, working on my commercial maneuvers now.  Side note if anyone has a published guide for commercial maneuvers for a C or E let me know.  I’m creating my own with power settings etc for chandelles, 8’s, etc but if there are some others out there please let me know!  Okay back on topic....

I want more speed.  Tell me how to get it.  The E has the 201 windshield, flap gaps seals, lower nose cowling mod.  What else is a good speed boost?  
I am thinking prop?  I have a 2 blade Hartzell on it now.  I assume a 3 blade is better?  How much do those run?  I have a powerflo exhaust also.

Thanks for the ideas!

-Ben
 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 2, 2020 by Pilot boy

[carusoam]

See if you can find @Bob_Belville’s writing, pics, and outlook on life... 

He had been updating his M20E for only a decade...

But it was near perfect at its peak...

 

Selecting mods to go faster... sometimes you have to select things differently than expected...

3 blade vs. 2 blade... (now you have lit the fire....) 

More blades are better at acceleration, and climb...

Fewer blades are better at limiting drag, thus increasing cruise speed...

Then WnB is worth looking into... a composite MT 2 blade prop might improve a few things...

To improve things that add more power... some efficiency goes out the exhaust pipe...

In some cases... adding extended range tanks can really improve things... if you fly long distances...

Re sealing the tanks... can be helpful... if needed...

Use caution... you might end up with an Ovation when you are done... 

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Rwsavory]

A 3 bladed prop will not yield a faster cruise speed.  You could try the STC for turning the brakes around, clean up antennas.  Not much juice left to squeeze.

[Paul_Havelka]

Sell and buy a rocket or missile. 
 

Could find a TN setup and have it installed. Not necessarily adding more power but you’d be able to fly higher while maintaining a higher manifold pressure 

[afward]

For the money it'll take, you really are better off selling the E and buying a Missile or 305 Rocket (or really any M20 with a 6 cylinder except the M20L with original engine).

Don't get me wrong, I've been dreaming of speed mods for my F, but lemme ask you this: On your typical mission, how much time would going 10kt faster actually save you?  15 minutes?

That won't stop me from spending some on aero mods, mind you...  The wife might, though...

[StevenL757]

12 hours ago, Pilot boy said:

Best speed upgrade for 64 M20 E

I want more speed.  Tell me how to get it.

An Ovation.  :-)

[hammdo]

Long range tanks - if you fly long distances ;o)

-Don

[TTaylor]

More speed or more speed at the same fuel flow? 

You already have the big one with the 201 windshield.  The PowerFlow may get you more speed, but because it is horsepower and not efficiency it usually comes at the cost of fuel burn. The 3 blade does not help speed and there was a pirep recently on prop changes that didn't do much for the $12K cost.

Top mods you have left:

1. Cowling. Either a 201 or LoPresti. Neither is cheap to do.  Hopefully there will be other options again soon.

2. Gear. Inner gear doors and/or brake rotation.

3. Add a turbo. Then you can go high and get better efficiency.

If you can archive 150 knots at around 9 gph you are already doing well. There is only so much you can do with a N.A. M20E.

 

 

[N201MKTurbo]

I've found rigging the plane is the biggest bang for the buck. You can probably get 150+ out of it.

If you want to go faster, leave the engine at takeoff power after you level off. Or buy a bigger airplane. While you can spend all your money chasing speed it will usually buy you a few minutes on a long cross country.

 

[takair]

I’ve had my 64 E for over 20 years and love it.  It is essentially stock with regard to speed mods.  However, I have squeezed more speed out of it over the years.  One big factor is rigging.  Gear and controls.  Hanging gear doors or a skidding airplane slow things down.  The old Mooneys had one flap up stop on the outboard end. The flap ends up slightly twisted.  I have been tempted to add a second inboard stop and straighten out my flaps to see if I get more speed.  It may not actually help, since the inboard side is actually reflexes a little.  My MOST significant speed increase came from an unexpected source.  I did a “top end” with new Lycoming Cylinders and Combustion Technologies PMA pistons.  I really can’t explain the significant power gain....I had reasonable compression....., but it was multiple knots increase.  I guess what I am saying is rigging and engine condition are significant contributors.  
 

I would love to add some speed mods, but I wonder if it is a more beneficial to efficiency than actual useful speed gain.  In winter I am routinely near red line in smooth air and when it’s not smooth it is hard to get below yellow without pulling lots of power.  Downhill I frequently wish for speed brakes.  I am curious, for those with the full spectrum of speed mods, are you actually pulling power to stay below red line in straight and level on cold days?

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, hammdo said:

Long range tanks - if you fly long distances ;o)

-Don

And Travel Johns, or Piloto's relief tube! 

[Yourpilotincommand]

For Chandelles go full throttle, mixture, prop. For lazy 8s and pylons I run 2400 rpm, 18”, mixture as needed. probably about the same for steep turns, but definitely maintain below maneuvering speed. Sometimes I might pull back a little to much and trigger the stall horn. I’m about to Check-ride for my commercial and that’s what I’ve been doing.  Start with those numbers. Your mileage may vary..

 

[Tim Jodice]

I went from a two to a three blade and I love everything about it BUT don't buy one for speed. I didn't gain any speed.

[Yourpilotincommand]

For best cruise performance I’m a Mike Bush fan. I run full throttle and run LOP at about 2500 and get about 172mph try at 8,000’ at 10gph in my io360-a1a

 

[Missile=Awesome]

Sabre cowl for the win!

[Pilot boy]

5 hours ago, afward said:

For the money it'll take, you really are better off selling the E and buying a Missile or 305 Rocket (or really any M20 with a 6 cylinder except the M20L with original engine).

Don't get me wrong, I've been dreaming of speed mods for my F, but lemme ask you this: On your typical mission, how much time would going 10kt faster actually save you?  15 minutes?

That won't stop me from spending some on aero mods, mind you...  The wife might, though...

This is tricky, I'm using it for work for multi state x countries....I'm not sure how much weather etc(winter icing) will allow this as I've just started using it for work.  For example this week I'm heading to Tulsa and next week to the far east coast.  I'm probably going to airline the far east coast trip (I'm in Nebraska).  Good news is wife is happier right now since I got a nice pay raise.  ;). Hahaha.  I'm getting avionics done in about a month.  Scatter shot panel right now with a 430W and STEC 30.  Looking at 2 GI 275s or a G3x.  

[Pilot boy]

1 hour ago, Yourpilotincommand said:

For best cruise performance I’m a Mike Bush fan. I run full throttle and run LOP at about 2500 and get about 172mph try at 8,000’ at 10gph in my io360-a1a

 

I'll have to try this but I don't think my numbers are quite that good.  At that altitude and settings with the power boost on I probably do about 160/165 mph when I'm alone in the plane.

[Pilot boy]

1 hour ago, Yourpilotincommand said:

For Chandelles go full throttle, mixture, prop. For lazy 8s and pylons I run 2400 rpm, 18”, mixture as needed. probably about the same for steep turns, but definitely maintain below maneuvering speed. Sometimes I might pull back a little to much and trigger the stall horn. I’m about to Check-ride for my commercial and that’s what I’ve been doing.  Start with those numbers. Your mileage may vary..

 

Okay so we pretty much are using 18/2400 for all the maneuvers as an entry starting point for cruise before stalls etc.,  lazy 8s so that seems about same.  The Chandelles you use full power?  We were having trouble controlling the plane to get max pitch up and then ending the 180 up near stall speed (70 mph) so we were going only to about 20 inches on that one.  

What settings are you using for your landings?  Short field especially.  What stripe are you aiming for?  I did my first practit short field landing in the E at 85 mph on final, about 75 over the numbers will full flaps calm wind.  That worked well and we landed on 2nd stripe.  

[0TreeLemur]

17 hours ago, Pilot boy said:

Hi again all,

    I’ve had my new to me M20E for about 3 months now and enjoying it much.  Great machine, working on my commercial maneuvers now.  Side note if anyone has a published guide for commercial maneuvers for a C or E let me know.  I’m creating my own with power settings etc for chandelles, 8’s, etc but if there are some others out there please let me know!  Okay back on topic....

I want more speed.  Tell me how to get it.  The E has the 201 windshield, flap gaps seals, lower nose cowling mod.  What else is a good speed boost?  
I am thinking prop?  I have a 2 blade Hartzell on it now.  I assume a 3 blade is better?  How much do those run?  I have a powerflo exhaust also.

Thanks for the ideas!

-Ben

See my pirep on the Hartzell Top Prop in this thread:

 

[Tim Jodice]

21 minutes ago, 0TreeLemur said:

See my pirep on the Hartzell Top Prop in this thread:

 

Now that you have had you new prop for awhile any new thoughts?

[Pilot boy]

4 hours ago, hammdo said:

Long range tanks - if you fly long distances ;o)

-Don

Have fuel bladder with 27.4 gallons each side.  The long range tanks improve the cruise speed?

[0TreeLemur]

Just now, Tim Jodice said:

Now that you have had you new prop for awhile any new thoughts?

Just flew her on a 2200 NM trip (TCL-CGM-FNL-LAA-GCL-TCL).   Came away pretty much convinced that the performance difference between the Top-Prop and the old HC-C2YK-1BF is < 1%.   Still seeing TAS in the 140-143 kt range.  While the Top Prop is definitely and demonstrably a bit quieter on my airplane, it isn't really noticeable wearing an ANC headset.   My recommendation remains don't buy the Top Prop for increased speed.  As @N201MKTurbo so wisely stated in the other thread, 99% of what's to know about propellers was known by the end of WWII.  Not a lot more juice to squeeze there in terms of prop design.   I'd love so see a comparison between the published propeller data for the Top Prop and the original prop.   Hartzell says that it is "more efficient".  They don't say "faster".  I suspect the increase in max. efficiency is <<1%.   It is true as @testwest wrote, the props on our airplane exhibit much lower efficiency in low speed climbing.  I've been trying to climb with a little less vertical speed at 105 kts, to take advantage of that increase in efficiency and keep CHT #4 below 410.

[David Lloyd]

18 minutes ago, Pilot boy said:

Have fuel bladder with 27.4 gallons each side.  The long range tanks improve the cruise speed?

By eliminating a fuel stop.  Another bladder to add to your system would give 64 gallons useable.  Not much difference.

[hammdo]

Exactly. No stop improves overall travel time. If you take 30 minutes normally to stop for gas, etc, vs having tanks, you'll be cruise + 30 minutes farther. At say 150 knots ground speed, you'll be 75 nm farther... time saved! 

[carusoam]

Many long range tanks were sold using @Gagarin‘s Law of time efficiency...

He used to post a chart of time saved by flying past a fuel stop in his ad in MAPA....

Don’t forget to include the time and fuel used for the extra descent, and second climb...

 

 

As for Rob’s @takairquestion regarding Vne during level flight on a cold day...  it is very close... the slightest descent will scream past Vne...   (from my engine break-in notes using the 310hp IO550...). We had left my home drome using about 2k’ for safety over the the towns... once over the water, we descended to 1k’agl... in the descent, we carefully watched the ASI... It was a beautifully smooth day.... 
 

Best regards,

-a-