Replacing KI256 and KI525 combo with GI275's - Any Experiences?

[flyingscot]

Greetings - I hope everyone is well and healthy - 

I am contemplating replacing my KI256/KI525A combo with GI275's (a GI275 ADAHRS+AP and a GI275 Base HSI).  I would also add a third 275 ( GI275 + ADAHRS) to act as an additional functional display, but could also be used as a failover from the primary AI GI275 (I know the HSI will do this, but this way, you don't compromise the HSI by cluttering it in an emergency, and can retain AP functionality in the failover).

I have a low-time 02 with the KFC225 and an upgraded stack including 750&650 Nav's. It seems like this is a good solution to eliminating the Vac system, digital-izing the primaries, and integrating with the rest of the Garmin stuff in the panel, w/o taking the full bite needed to install a G500Txi - that option is at least twice the price and also starts to move the amount I have put into the plane well past what I think it's reasonable to expect to get out of it - 

I love the aircraft, really love it, but think someday I will want to move into a turbo, so I can't yet justify investing like it's my forever plane.

Anyone have any experience with this type of replacement or with the GI275's in general? I did a search for this before posting, but didn't see much in the way of a discussion on this - 

Thanks in advance for any feedback/insights - Bob

 

[jetdriven]

for the money, youre almost G3X touch money.  of course i think you need the G500txi, but in that case its twice the money but 6 times the screen.

[flyingscot]

I understood there was an issue with the G3X driving the KFC225 - but maybe that's wrong?

[hypertech]

The question is how confident you are in your 225.  One servo overhaul and you are better off with 2 G5s and the GFC500.  Three GI275s might also be approaching the same price you would pay for 2 G5s with a new autopilot too.

[flyingscot]

I have no idea what a servo overhaul costs on the 225. Any thoughts?

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, FlyingScot said:

Greetings - I hope everyone is well and healthy - 

I am contemplating replacing my KI256/KI525A combo with GI275's (a GI275 ADAHRS+AP and a GI275 Base HSI).  I would also add a third 275 ( GI275 + ADAHRS) to act as an additional functional display, but could also be used as a failover from the primary AI GI275 (I know the HSI will do this, but this way, you don't compromise the HSI by cluttering it in an emergency, and can retain AP functionality in the failover).

I have a low-time 02 with the KFC225 and an upgraded stack including 750&650 Nav's. It seems like this is a good solution to eliminating the Vac system, digital-izing the primaries, and integrating with the rest of the Garmin stuff in the panel, w/o taking the full bite needed to install a G500Txi - that option is at least twice the price and also starts to move the amount I have put into the plane well past what I think it's reasonable to expect to get out of it - 

I love the aircraft, really love it, but think someday I will want to move into a turbo, so I can't yet justify investing like it's my forever plane.

Anyone have any experience with this type of replacement or with the GI275's in general? I did a search for this before posting, but didn't see much in the way of a discussion on this - 

Thanks in advance for any feedback/insights - Bob

 

Honestly, I think your plan is sound.  You either need the G500 or the GI275 to drive your autopilot, so that keeps you out of the G5, G3x units.

Depending on price, I would definitely consider going with just 2 GI275s.  Yes, I know you’ll never complain about having more fancy digital displays, but two of them (both with adhrs and battery backup) provide a nice safe failover solution.  On a normal basis your HSI will be exactly the same.  If the worse happens and the primary fails in IMC, 90% of my concern is keeping the dirty side down.  Losing the HSI data in that case doesn’t bother me.  I’m gonna tell ATC I’ve got a problem and I want specific vectors, maybe even no gyro if I’m feeling frisky (yes, I know you’ll still have heading data, but it’s an option to offload navigation if you need to).  You still have all the info you need for an approach between the remaining display and your gtn.

FWIW, I have 2xG5s and they are really easy to use for attitude, heading, cdi and glideslope all off one display.  Two is nice, but one is plenty in the very unlikely situation where the other has failed.

As far as using an extra -275 for a mini mfd, that’s nice, but you already have a -750 and -650 showing traffic, weather, etc.  those screens are much bigger and work great for that stuff.

Anyway, that’s my 2 cents. Not buying an extra -275 saves a lot of 100ll or a little towards that turbo!

[carusoam]

How many pireps would you like?
 

How many things do you want to integrate with?

How much are you looking forward to having modern technology in the same two holes that have been there forever?

https://mooneyspace.com/search/?q=Gi275&quick=1

 

GI275, G5, G3X, G500txi....

So much to choose from....  none of them are bad...

Best regards,

-a-

[Niko182]

You can either do the 2 GI275s. Or do 2 G5s, a gfc500 and sell the kfc225. As others mentioned, 1 servo failure, and youre cheaper off doing the 2 g5s and a gfc500.

[Seth]

I have a fiend who just installed a 275 and the screen is to the edge and much bigger than you think. The clarity is fantastic. It’s better than a G5.

I’m considering going down this path as well.

A G500 sounds nice.

I’ll hold off a bit longer, but if either of my king units go TU, a 275 is going in vs an overhaul right now (unless Alan Fox finds me another in expensive KI256 like he did last time!!)

-Seth

Edited August 17, 2020 by Seth

[Jerry 5TJ]

17 hours ago, FlyingScot said:

I have no idea what a servo overhaul costs on the 225. Any thoughts?

Last year a pitch servo overhaul for our KFC225 was $1800 from Autopilots Central.  About 1 hour labor to remove and reinstall.  

[PTK]

21 hours ago, FlyingScot said:

I would also add a third 275 ( GI275 + ADAHRS) to act as an additional functional display, but could also be used as a failover from the primary AI GI275 (I know the HSI will do this, but this way, you don't compromise the HSI by cluttering it in an emergency, and can retain AP functionality in the failover).

Bob, would you please expand on this a little bit? How does a third GI275 + ADAHRS retain AP functionality in a failover? This sounds very interesting and I’d like to learn more! its a question I had asked Garmin about with a dual GI275 failover. They said only one GI275 can be interfaced to the ap according to the STC. But I never thought to ask about if a third GI275 in the mix will retain ap functionality. How is that done and how would it work? I have the KFC150. Thanks

[PTK]

21 hours ago, jetdriven said:

for the money, youre almost G3X touch money.  of course i think you need the G500txi, but in that case its twice the money but 6 times the screen.

G3X touch is non TSO and something like 6 yo tech. Minor points maybe but...

[flyingscot]

2 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Last year a pitch servo overhaul for our KFC225 was $1800 from Autopilots Central.  About 1 hour labor to remove and reinstall.  

That sounds reasonable and makes it worth OH rather than replace - 

[flyingscot]

22 minutes ago, PTK said:

Bob, would you please expand on this a little bit? How does a third GI275 + ADAHRS retain AP functionality in a failover? This sounds very interesting and I’d like to learn more! its a question I had asked Garmin about with a dual GI275 failover. They said that wasn’t in the STC. But I never thought to ask about if a third GI275 in the mix will retain ap functionality. How is that done and would it work? I have the KFC150. Thanks

We have been working with Garmin on this - my current understanding is that, as you say, the AP is INOP in failover to the HSI, but if you have a redundant AI+ADAHRS, then dedicated failover to it can preserve AP function. I am not convinced of this, however, and am still working it - not an AP, but I don't know that it passes the smell test given how I know the KFC225 interfaces to the KI256. I suspect at a minimum there needs to be additional HW in the loop, eg the GAD43e.They don't have a lot of examples to point to of this type of configuration, as obviously most people opt for two units as primaries in the standard stack.  I'll post when I have an answer that satisfies.

[PTK]

38 minutes ago, FlyingScot said:

I'll post when I have an answer that satisfies.

Please do! I’m very interested in preserving ap functionality in failover. Thanks!

[MIm20c]

If you are looking for resale in the next 5 years keep what you have now or upgrade to a big screen. Even the old G500 displays with a gad AP interface bring a substantial amount more on the used market. 
 

The Mortiz gauges will also be a value detractor and are a reliability nightmare. I’d suggest a 10 inch g3x w/EIS and a backup 275 w/AP adapter (almost positive the 275 provides encoding altimeter output). The 225 does not play well with the txi because it has an integrated altitude pre select. Might as well save the money and go with the g3x. The difference in cost is not as much as you think and I’d guess you’d receive 2-3x’s the delta when you sell.  

[aviatoreb]

16 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

If you are looking for resale in the next 5 years keep what you have now or upgrade to a big screen. Even the old G500 displays with a gad AP interface bring a substantial amount more on the used market. 
 

The Mortiz gauges will also be a value detractor and are a reliability nightmare. I’d suggest a 10 inch g3x w/EIS and a backup 275 w/AP adapter (almost positive the 275 provides encoding altimeter output). The 225 does not play well with the txi because it has an integrated altitude pre select. Might as well save the money and go with the g3x. The difference in cost is not as much as you think and I’d guess you’d receive 2-3x’s the delta when you sell.  

I am generally of the opinion that upgrading an airplane in a manner where we are thinking in terms of resale, is a waste of money.  The cost of aircraft upgrades is huge and the marginal cost of sale is generally pennies on the dollar once an aircraft reaches a certain level of quality.

Instead I operate on a upgrade to please myself principle.  I will be upgrading very soon - probably to dual GI275 to drive my KFC200 for the time being as my next incremental upgrade.

Actually, and I know my perspective is minority, but I really love the aesthetic of the old round gauges and I have kept my Swiss watch mechanical gauges far longer than I probably should have from a safety stand point.  I am just thrilled with the beautify of these mechanical devices.  I have a mechanical watch on my wrist for the same reason instead of an iWatch.  But I am sold that these are just inferior to anything digital.  I am sort of sad about the idea of taking my lovely panel and turning it into a tv screen even though I admit it is functionally fantastic and neat in its own way.  So I really like the aesthetic of the GI275 - I am that customer that thinks this is the just right solution - gold locks zone - between old school aesthetics and modern functionality.  And I like it has less fuss with extra boxes hidden behind the panel and pricewise installed a dual Gi275 system is comparable to an aspen system.  With a pathway to upgrade further to GFC500 if and when I get that itch, but incrementally if I wish, soon, later or never.  I am getting close to pulling the trigger on booking a September date.

[Skates97]

2 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

I am generally of the opinion that upgrading an airplane in a manner where we are thinking in terms of resale, is a waste of money.  The cost of aircraft upgrades is huge and the marginal cost of sale is generally pennies on the dollar once an aircraft reaches a certain level of quality.

Instead I operate on a upgrade to please myself principle.  I will be upgrading very soon - probably to dual GI275 to drive my KFC200 for the time being as my next incremental upgrade.

Actually, and I know my perspective is minority, but I really love the aesthetic of the old round gauges and I have kept my Swiss watch mechanical gauges far longer than I probably should have from a safety stand point.  I am just thrilled with the beautify of these mechanical devices.  I have a mechanical watch on my wrist for the same reason instead of an iWatch.  But I am sold that these are just inferior to anything digital.  I am sort of sad about the idea of taking my lovely panel and turning it into a tv screen even though I admit it is functionally fantastic and neat in its own way.  So I really like the aesthetic of the GI275 - I am that customer that thinks this is the just right solution - gold locks zone - between old school aesthetics and modern functionality.  And I like it has less fuss with extra boxes hidden behind the panel and pricewise installed a dual Gi275 system is comparable to an aspen system.  With a pathway to upgrade further to GFC500 if and when I get that itch, but incrementally if I wish, soon, later or never.  I am getting close to pulling the trigger on booking a September date.

I agree with everything you have said. The upgrades to the plane have been because I either needed them (shoulder belts) or wanted them for my own flying enjoyment (pretty much everything else).

I really like the round gauges as well, and have been holding out hope for the AV-30's, but they just got pushed off again to the 4th quarter of this year. That, coupled with the ever elusive TrueTrack, the looming on the horizon GFC500, and that my D has no auto pilot or even positive control has had me accept that the old school round gauges are going away. I have dual G5's arriving Monday from @Avionics Source (Chase took great care of me) and they will go in the panel. If the GFC500 is approved before TrueTrack I will need a G5 anyway so down that Garmin rabbit hole I go...

I am keeping the pre-order I have for the certified AV-30's from almost 18 months ago. They are going to honor the original price of $1595 ea so if/when they ship I'm sure I can sell them to someone for less than the new price of $1995 each and everyone will be happy.

[Isaac Maxson]

Hey Bob, 

I have a bit of experience with installing GI-275’s. I actually installed 3 GI-275s in a Mooney M20C. Picture attached. The GI-275s are great units and have a ton of capabilities. They work together in a way similar to a flight deck. I would recommend going with at least the GI-275 ADAHRS + AP and GI-275 ADAHRS. If they are installed in accordance with the STC install manual with a reversionary switch they can become primary IFR instrumentation for attitude, heading, airspeed, altitude, vertical speed, and turn information. Theoretically, if so desired the other instruments could be removed.(Airspeed, Altimeter, VSI, Turn Coordinator) 
The interface to the KFC225 is pretty extensive. In order to comply with the STC the autopilot must be connected to the primary ADI which will be the GI-275 ADAHRS + AP.  This is the only version of the GI-275 that will work with third party autopilots. I don’t see any way that the other GI275 could drive the KFC 225 if the GI 275 + AP is turned off. 
Garmin is also coming out with the capability of the GI-275s to be able to drive the GFC 500. So that would still be an option if needed. 
One thing to think about when removing the KCS 55A system(KI-256 and KI-525) is that you will most probably be getting rid of synchro heading.  Instruments that you have that were receiving that synchro heading before will no longer be receiving it. Examples of units that might be receiving synchro heading would be Shadin Fuel Air Data computers, Stormscope, Skywatch, Radar etc... 

These are just a few thoughts. 

Isaac Maxson

Private Pilot | Avionics Technician 

[carusoam]

Perfect...

Welcome aboard Isaac!

We need more Avionics techs that fly Mooneys around here...

PP thoughts only, not an avionics technician... 

Best regards,

-a-

[Isaac Maxson]

Thanks a lot @carusoam. 
It is good to be on Mooney Space. 

[Rmag]

1 hour ago, Isaac Maxson said:

I would recommend going with at least the GI-275 ADAHRS + AP and GI-275 ADAHRS. If they are installed in accordance with the STC install manual with a reversionary switch they can become primary IFR instrumentation for attitude, heading, airspeed, altitude, vertical speed, and turn information. Theoretically, if so desired the other instruments could be removed.(Airspeed, Altimeter, VSI, Turn Coordinator) 

Yep...

Welcome to Mooneyspace  Isaac.

[Isaac Maxson]

Thanks @Rmag! Nice panel there. 

Isaac Maxson 
KCQF, AL

[flyingscot]

On 8/14/2020 at 7:30 PM, Isaac Maxson said:

The interface to the KFC225 is pretty extensive. In order to comply with the STC the autopilot must be connected to the primary ADI which will be the GI-275 ADAHRS + AP.  This is the only version of the GI-275 that will work with third party autopilots. I don’t see any way that the other GI275 could drive the KFC 225 if the GI 275 + AP is turned off. 

>>> II thought this might be the case - thanks  

On 8/14/2020 at 7:30 PM, Isaac Maxson said:

Instruments that you have that were receiving that synchro heading before will no longer be receiving it. Examples of units that might be receiving synchro heading would be Shadin Fuel Air Data computers, Stormscope, Skywatch, Radar etc... 

I have a Stormscope and Shadin, etc. Does this mean the SS will no longer track to the heading?

This is really helpful - thank you.  Nice looking panel BTW!

[Eduleo]

I installed 2 GI275's in my J a few weeks ago, coming from steam gauges and a KAP150. The functionality is fantastic, and it took me very little time to get used to the display format.

The screen feels large because it fills the entire round hole, no black spots. It is bright and very clear, and even though I kept my ASI, VSI, alt and turn coordinator, I don't look at those anymore (waste of UL!). Shot my first LPV approach to within 100' of minimums the other day and having all the info I needed in a small area, including altitude alerts, terrain, traffic, GS, and course, was a big +, not a "-" IMHO. It integrates nicely with my 430w and KAP150 both horizontally and vertically. I still use foreflight connected to a FS210, and a stormscope. I don't see the need for any more info in the cockpit.

Now, some deicing and a PT6 would be nice. Oh, and a pressurized cabin, please.