Cause for concern?

[201Steve]

Hey folks,

Found some ferrous metal in my oil filter today. This is the first time I’ve seen any at all. 400 hrs on the motor. 77j with iO360. I’m not freaking out yet, but would like some perspective. The attached pic is everything I pulled out of the filter media. 
 

I got it back from annual 3 weeks ago, All was clear at that point. then I flew it to California and back to Georgia last week and put 35 hours on the airplane so I went for oil change today. Don’t know if the long, hard, hot, and high might have put it under more constant stress than usual, thus causing new wear? 
 

 

[ArtVandelay]

Did you get a sample for oil analysis?

[Guest]

I wouldn’t panic yet.  Run it again and check the filter again.  Lycoming has a Service instruction covering allowable amounts of metal in the filter.

https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/Piston Pin Plug Wear Inspection.pdf

I doubt that oil sampling will tell you much, Ive seen many reports come back clean with the camshaft stuck to my magnet.

Clarence

Edited July 12, 2020 by M20Doc

[201Steve]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

Did you get a sample for oil analysis?

I did. Obviously won’t have it back for a bit, though. 

[Herlihy Brother]

FYI, I'm running with 4 or 5 could w broken oil control rings, big chunks of steel in the finger screen on the tio540. She's been that way since overhaul believe it or not.  By big chunks I mean sections of ring material. Huge. I may replace those cylinders or may not, we'll see.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Herlihy Brother said:

FYI, I'm running with 4 or 5 could w broken oil control rings, big chunks of steel in the finger screen on the tio540. She's been that way since overhaul believe it or not.  By big chunks I mean sections of ring material. Huge. I may replace those cylinders or may not, we'll see.

The pieces of ferrous metal which make it through the suction screen holes pass through the your oil pump scoring the aluminum body and the gears.  As the pump wears out it looses its ability to make oil pressure with hot oil.

These pieces also get pushed into the aluminum piston skirts, with every stroke of the piston the cylinder walls are scored, destroying what is a repairable cylinder.

Clarence

[StevenL757]

5 hours ago, Herlihy Brother said:

FYI, I'm running with 4 or 5 could w broken oil control rings, big chunks of steel in the finger screen on the tio540. She's been that way since overhaul believe it or not.  By big chunks I mean sections of ring material. Huge. I may replace those cylinders or may not, we'll see.

You may not have a choice as to whether you need to repair those cylinders or not.

Personally, what you’re describing sounds like an un-airworthy condition and should be repaired before you fly again.  I’d also look for another shop, because something clearly isn’t right there.

Steve

[Davidv]

7 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

You may not have a choice as to whether you need to repair those cylinders or not.

Personally, what you’re describing sounds like an un-airworthy condition and should be repaired before you fly again.  I’d also look for another shop, because something clearly isn’t right there.

Steve

Not that this changes your commentary much, but it looks like this may be one of two engines on his airplane?

[StevenL757]

I assumed that’s true...given his profile shows an Aerostar 700.  And no...it doesn’t change anything...not intending to attack.  His other engine could be doing the same thing, and there could be more to the story we don’t know.

[Davidv]

4 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

I assumed that’s true...given his profile shows an Aerostar 700.  And no...it doesn’t change anything...not intending to attack.  His other engine could be doing the same thing, and there could be more to the story we don’t know.

Yeah, agreed, I was thinking single engine and thought he is extremely brave and then I looked at his profile.  Now I just think he’s brave.  Doesn’t make it any better if one (or both) went at less than 500 ft.  But it’s his airplane, so I’ll hold short of further commentary.

[Ragsf15e]

20 hours ago, Herlihy Brother said:

FYI, I'm running with 4 or 5 could w broken oil control rings, big chunks of steel in the finger screen on the tio540. She's been that way since overhaul believe it or not.  By big chunks I mean sections of ring material. Huge. I may replace those cylinders or may not, we'll see.

I’m all for “on condition” maintenance, but this just doesn’t sound safe to me.  If big chunks of metal are in your finger screen, I think most responsible airplane owners would probably want that situation fixed.  I guess it’s up to you as the pilot if you have an IA signing your annual as airworthy, but I don’t think I’d be going around telling people that’s a good way to maintain an airplane.

[Ragsf15e]

14 hours ago, Davidv said:

Yeah, agreed, I was thinking single engine and thought he is extremely brave and then I looked at his profile.  Now I just think he’s brave.  Doesn’t make it any better if one (or both) went at less than 500 ft.  But it’s his airplane, so I’ll hold short of further commentary.

Brave wasn’t exactly what I was thinking, but you’re right, it’s his airplane.  Just don’t plant it in a subdivision and give us all a black eye.

[MikeOH]

33 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Brave wasn’t exactly what I was thinking, but you’re right, it’s his airplane.  Just don’t plant it in a subdivision and give us all a black eye.

Ah, come on.  I understand them there F15s can fly with one WING missing...whatcha worried about losing an engine?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M359poNjvVA

Edited July 18, 2020 by MikeOH

[EricJ]

On 7/12/2020 at 3:31 PM, 201Steve said:

I did. Obviously won’t have it back for a bit, though. 

FWIW, my engine did something similar.    Oil analysis showed metal the same time the magnet did, and the local Lycoming rep as well as the guys at AES that had done a recent tear-down on the engine (within the previous two years) both said to just monitor it.    It kept running fine and compressions stayed good, and every oil change there was less metal and the oil analysis said things were improving as well.    It's been doing that for two years and more than 200 hours, and the last oil analysis said things are back to normal now, and there's not much metal on the magnet to speak of.

If you have an engine monitor keep an eye on temps and oil pressure, and just keep an eye on oil analysis and what comes out of the oil filter.    If it gets worse, start consulting the Lycoming SI (which quantifies allowable metal in the filter in teaspoons) and qualified engine experts.   If it gets better, just keep monitoring.   At least, that was the advice I got when mine started doing that.

[MikeOH]

12 hours ago, EricJ said:

FWIW, my engine did something similar.    Oil analysis showed metal the same time the magnet did, and the local Lycoming rep as well as the guys at AES that had done a recent tear-down on the engine (within the previous two years) both said to just monitor it.    It kept running fine and compressions stayed good, and every oil change there was less metal and the oil analysis said things were improving as well.    It's been doing that for two years and more than 200 hours, and the last oil analysis said things are back to normal now, and there's not much metal on the magnet to speak of.

If you have an engine monitor keep an eye on temps and oil pressure, and just keep an eye on oil analysis and what comes out of the oil filter.    If it gets worse, start consulting the Lycoming SI (which quantifies allowable metal in the filter in teaspoons) and qualified engine experts.   If it gets better, just keep monitoring.   At least, that was the advice I got when mine started doing that.

This sounds all well and good, but my mind keeps coming back to: that metal came from somewhere...and why was it needed in the first place if it is, apparently, not needed anymore?

[EricJ]

30 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

This sounds all well and good, but my mind keeps coming back to: that metal came from somewhere...and why was it needed in the first place if it is, apparently, not needed anymore?

It does seem odd, but the Lycoming SI criteria for allowable metal in the filter is a lot more than one might think.   The Lycoming rep and the local (reputable) engine shop that had torn down my engine not long before I bought it, both had the same advice of, "don't panic, just run it normally and monitor it."  These engines are pretty simple, have pretty large clearances, and decent filtering systems, so the accumulated wisdom from experience seems to be that if you keep an eye on it you're likely to either see it sort itself out or let you know well in advance if you need to do something else.

I think the key thing is to do a good job of monitoring it.

[201Steve]

Paging @M20Doc and others familiar with scoping cylinder walls. 
 

The metal I found in the filter is driving me crazy- what could it be?! So in addition to “just keep flying” I decided to pull the top cowling and top spark plugs to scope the cylinder walls. I used a vividia able scope with articulating Head, but sheesh it’s tougher than I thought. It’s challenging to identify abnormalcies through a tiny camera. Also, there is a hotspot on the camera lense that appears as an annoying big yellow dot in the middle.  Anyway, I’ve edited down a short video and a couple still shots of something I found. Does this finding look consistent with broken ring, scoring, etc? I so wanted to see it with my eyes and feel it with my finger but I think I’m on to something. Can you confirm???

[Guest]

It’s hard to tell on an IPad, the marks in the 3 pictures are interesting.  You would expect scoring to be lengthwise. I soldered a 330 light bulb on a length of speaker wire, in some cases it improves the lighting in the cylinder when trying to get pictures.

Clarence

Edited July 26, 2020 by M20Doc

[Guest]

On 7/18/2020 at 12:13 PM, MikeOH said:

This sounds all well and good, but my mind keeps coming back to: that metal came from somewhere...and why was it needed in the first place if it is, apparently, not needed anymore?

His Lycoming is confused and thinks it’s got a Continental “self healing” camshaft.

Clarence

[mike_elliott]

naw...they only put those on the IO720's...

[jetdriven]

Wash the filter media in a quart Plastic HD cup of mineral spirits then place A fishing magnet under the cup and pour off the solvent.  You’ll see everything then.  The magnet on a stick down the filter pleats isn’t too precise or all-inclusive 

[ArtVandelay]

Broken piston ring?

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

naw...they only put those on the IO720's...

No cam troubles thankfully, last I looked a new one was more than 10K.  I have had all of the cylinders off to replace the piston pin plugs though.

Clarence

[mike_elliott]

1 minute ago, M20Doc said:

No cam troubles thankfully, last I looked a new one was more than 10K.  I have had all of the cylinders off to replace the piston pin plugs though.

Clarence

A cam for those suckers would take a steel mill to make. Glad you didnt have to invest in one

[GeeBee]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

Broken piston ring?

Sure looks like something is scoring the cylinder walls.