Emergency Landing | Baggage Door Blow Off Mid Flight | Model K

[flyboy0681]

4 minutes ago, Ibra said:

A simple theoretical explanation: even when you cut throttle landing with 10kts-15kts tailwind, you will tend to gain a lot of indicated airspeed IAS as you descend through tailwind gradient (tailwind is slower as you go down near the surface that gets converted into IAS) or when hit by tail gusts (10kts? 20kts?), the effect is very pronounced as you flare...the same as you add few kts or MPs when landing is gusty headwind days, you need to take few kts or MPs off when landing with tailwinds

At some point it gets impossible to avoid an overshoot on 3* deg approach slope unless you fly it dead on stall speed, but I am not suggesting that when a bag door is sitting on the tail for the reason @Shadrach mentions (unless you stall it in the air that day there is no way you can know the stall speed, maybe 95kts IAS?)

  

 

Excellent points. Based on the position of the windsock at 6:20, do you think there was a tailwind?

[Ibra]

Looks about 10kts-15kts from 8 O'clock to me, so some tail & enough cross wind and gust from the trees near that solar farm
While not much tailwind it is enough to get anyone mentally ready for it, the tail crosswind component is tricky though 

Edited June 8, 2020 by Ibra

[flyboy0681]

Just now, Ibra said:

Looks about 10kts-15kts from 8 O'clock to me, so some tail & enough cross wind and gust from the trees near that solar farm
While not much tailwind it is enough to get anyone mentally ready for it, the tail crosswind component is tricky though 

Looks to me to be coming from 11:00.

[Ibra]

5 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

Looks to me to be coming from 11:00.

Not the best explanation then, taking my comment back 

[flyboy0681]

Just now, Ibra said:

Not the best explanation then, taking my comment back 

I studied the trees as he was taxiing, but they gave no clue.

[Hank]

Boy, rough crowd today . . . . . .

[flyboy0681]

Just now, Hank said:

Boy, rough crowd today . . . . . .

I think it's been very constructive. Hopefully everybody has learned something from this and in the unfortunate event it happens to somebody else, they'll know what to do.

But if there's one thing that I've learned from this it's the landing gear can take a phenomenal amount of punishment.

 

 

[podair]

Awesome job, hats off to the passenger too for keeping calm.

IMHO, perfect emergency landing in the circumstances and of course right call to land immediately. Who knows what a baggage door stuck to the tailplane does to the airflow or structure! Dropped the gear when you had the field made, great stuff. No one got hurt and the aircraft is even repairable.

I was hoping to fly OSUS at some point (I fly the twins in Dan's group) to see how the K is different to my F but looks like it won't happen! Drop me a line if you fancy a flight in an older Mooney out of Denham. 

Definitely going to go to Charlton Park now... I can't believe I've been flying here for 20+ years and never been. Get the Husky or any taildragger and have fun on farm strips in the meantime!

[MikeOH]

7 hours ago, flyboy0681 said:

 Hopefully everybody has learned something from this and in the unfortunate event it happens to somebody else, they'll know what to do.

 

 

Yeah, I learned that there's always a few arm-chair QBs ready to criticize anyone, after the fact, for just about anything and excuse it off as "constructive learning."

As far as 'knowing what to do' if the 'unfortunate event' happens to me...well, thanks to RedSkyFlyer, I'll know what to do.

[flyboy0681]

Just now, MikeOH said:

Yeah, I learned that there's always a few arm-chair QBs ready to criticize anyone, after the fact, for just about anything and excuse it off as "constructive learning."

As far as 'knowing what to do' if the 'unfortunate event' happens to me...well, thanks to RedSkyFlyer, I'll know what to do.

Do you think for one minute, no make that thirty seconds, that if things didn't turn out the way they did but the video survived as is, that people here wouldn't say that he dropped the gear too late and came in too fast? If you say otherwise your being disingenuous.

[MikeOH]

Just now, flyboy0681 said:

Do you think for one minute, no make that thirty seconds, that if things didn't turn out the way they did but the video survived as is, that people here wouldn't say that he dropped the gear too late and came in too fast? If you say otherwise your being disingenuous.

My point is: It doesn't matter what the outcome, Monday morning Ex Spurts will always be all too ready to criticize.  Sad.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, flyboy0681 said:

Do you think for one minute, no make that thirty seconds, that if things didn't turn out the way they did but the video survived as is, that people here wouldn't say that he dropped the gear too late and came in too fast? If you say otherwise your being disingenuous.

Was he perfect? No. [Are you? Also No.] For a normal landing, we would all criticize. But there is nothing normal about a sudden emergency landing in a damaged plane.

Was Red correct to land immediately? I certainly think so. His plane was damaged, more so on close inspection than was apparent at first glance after landing. He said he had control issues, but you can't see how hard he is pulling on the yoke so you dismiss the idea. I believe him, he was there and we were not.

Was the landing perfect? No, but humans rarely perform perfectly under sudden stress. But it was good enough.

Was the landing effective? He put it on the runway that he picked out, rolled out with no damage, didn't hit anything and all occupants emerged uninjured. So the landing was pretty good.

Good job, Mr. Pilot! Not such a good job, Mr. Florida Peanut Gallery.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Hank

[carusoam]

always going to be a challenge to write something... and be understood the same way as you had intended...   

 

An important part of the situation...

1) Something went wrong...

2) Some damage was created...

3) How much damage is unknown...

4) We know one thing.... the plane is still flying at this one speed and altitude...

5) Will it continue to fly when things change? Yes, no, possibly?

6) Do you want to experiment? No...

7) Take your best training, and execute immediately... before a change occurs, and things get worse...

8) Training for altered airfoils... what do we do when ice builds on the wings?

9) Change very little, keep the airspeed up, land on a long runway...

10) Don’t slow down, you risk falling out of the sky... at an unknown speed...

11) Calculate how much time it takes to get to the nearest airport... pray to several gods of your choice and a few extras... repeat until time expires... 

12) Slow down when the ground is under the plane.... in case you fall... you don’t want to fall more than several feet...

 

You can clearly see... this has become a different plane, that has not been test flown, the stall speeds we are familiar with may no longer apply...

The stall characteristics probably aren’t the same as we have trained with...

All good questions...

always maintain respect for each other.... Hard to do while speaking... extra challenging while writing...
 

Go MS!

Best regards,

-a-

[Ibra]

4 hours ago, carusoam said:

You can clearly see... this has become a different plane, that has not been test flown, the stall speeds we are familiar with may no longer apply...

The stall characteristics probably aren’t the same as we have trained with...

Surely with a bag door on the tail that M20K had non-intuitive yoke forces near the stall, something that feels more like SIAI-Marchetti's (1019?) or DC3s than a Mooney 

Edited June 9, 2020 by Ibra

[flyboy0681]

To my adoring fans. I did not set out on this thread to criticize the pilot, who by all accounts did a brilliant job in bringing his ship in for a safe landing. When I first viewed the video I saw something that nobody else here did, an outstanding learning tool. From first frame to the last, this piece of recorded history tells a story from which we can all learn because it is not only compelling due to the events unfolding, but the magnificent quality. The position of the camera gives us a full view of the panel from left to right, while the sun was behind the aircraft making for perfect exposure without any glare. The high definition image allows us to see the panel in great detail, and right down to single strands of hair on his wife’s head. And just having the sound recorded directly from the camera mic instead of a muted feed from the audio panel adds to the experience.

I went back over my posts and still don’t feel that I criticize anything that he did but simply asked if we would have done the same thing under similar circumstances, which I think is a fair question. I found that the words “if that were me” do not appear anywhere, but the word “praise” does. I believe he handled it quite extraordinarily and even had the wherewithal to make sure he had enough power by immediately adjusting the prop and mixture.

I learned a long time ago that a lot of great information can be gleaned from Mooneyspace. This includes information that I took away and applied as well as information that I posted and hoped would someday save somebody in a similar situation. I can instantly recall one situation that happened to me where posts on Mooneyspace helped immensely – the first time the door popped open in flight. I had read many stories on the subject and they all had the same theme, that while it’s initially scary (if not noisy), the flight characteristics of the plane doesn’t change and there’s no need to declare an emergency or land immediately. In fact, when it happened the first time, I flew to a suitable airport 20 minutes away instead of landing at shorter fields along the way, all due to the information that I had learned here. The second time it happened I was flying with a legend here on MS and we just soldiered on to our destination with the door trailing in the breeze.

The one time that I had hoped to have made a contribution was when I had experienced runaway trim. I chronicled that event here on MS by stating that I couldn’t hold altitude and was struggling to stay level to the point where I wrapped by elbow around the yoke, pulling it from the bend in my arm. I didn’t know at the time that the trim switch had stuck and was applying nose down trim to the stops. When I finally noticed the trim indicator, I grabbed that wheel like there was no tomorrow. Since that day I always – always- place my two middle fingers on top of the wheel while using the switch just to make sure that it stops when commanded and I hope that others do as well.

Like I said in the first posts, I had hoped that my contribution would not be construed as criticism, but I guess it was. I haven't been this lambasted since Little Timmy.

 

[eman1200]

11 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

 

having an opinion different from that of the majority here on MS will often get thrown back in your face.  happens to me often.  FWIW, I certainly didn't take your feedback as criticism, as I also saw what appeared to be normal looking turns and elevator activity in the video, doesn't mean I don't have high praise for the OP and how he handled it.  also, CLOSE YOUR BAGGAGE DOOR, WILL YA?!? 

[flyboy0681]

5 minutes ago, eman1200 said:

having an opinion different from that of the majority here on MS will often get thrown back in your face.  happens to me often.  FWIW, I certainly didn't take your feedback as criticism, as I also saw what appeared to be normal looking turns and elevator activity in the video, doesn't mean I don't have high praise for the OP and how he handled it.  also, CLOSE YOUR BAGGAGE DOOR, WILL YA?!? 

His turn to final was almost majestic.

And thanks for your support.

 

[bonal]

Flyboy I didn't see any disrespect in your comments and if I were to have the good fortune to have recorded an emergency with such successful outcome would expect to and welcome constructive comments this is how we learn. All to often the end is tragic and there is no definitive record of events so all we can do is speculation and some folks around take shots at those that do because the facts are still pending.  Don't feel bad about taking some heat some of us are used to being on the receiving end around here. I guess it's all part of not being an expert but still having the freedom to express oneself.

[PTK]

@flyboy0681, consider the source of these negative comments. Certain individuals on here can't be taken seriously because they simply lack credibility. 

The op did a great job bringing a bad situation to a safe outcome and posted a video for us. I am very grateful for that. Criticism opens our eyes and provides perspective to things we may have overlooked or never considered. I think of it as “peer” or “performance“ review.  Discussion and constructive criticism sheds light and gives us all the opportunity to learn and improve.

[MikeOH]

4 hours ago, PTK said:

@flyboy0681, consider the source of these negative comments. Certain individuals on here can't be taken seriously because they simply lack credibility.

So, criticism you agree with is welcome, but that with which you do not is deemed to be unworthy since it is clearly from those that 'simply lack credibility.'

Got it

[PT20J]

Perhaps I look at it a little differently because I once had an aileron jam in a C-152 Aerobat coming out of a hammerhead turn. (The problem turned out to be due to a cleco left in the wing, but that's another story). In my case, the airplane wanted to roll hard to the right and it took considerable control pressure to keep it level. We (another instructor was on board -- we were having some fun after work) happened to be pointed at an airport and roughly lined up with a 4000' runway so we declared an emergency and were able to land without having to maneuver. I can tell you that a control problem messes seriously with your mind because what will happen next is completely unknown: What's broken? Will it suddenly let go and become uncontrollable? What will happen if I change speed or configuration? In my case, I flew that little plane down close to the runway without changing airspeed until I had pavement under me and then I slowly reduced power and let it slow and land. I used about 2000' - a record for my longest landing ever in a C-152. So, if I had been flying a Mooney with a baggage door stuck on my stabilizer messing with my elevator, I'd have kept the speed up, left the flaps alone and not messed with the gear until the last minute. The only rule that matters about when to put the gear down is that it has to be down and locked before the wheels touch.

Skip

 

[jetdriven]

56 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

So, criticism you agree with is welcome, but that with which you do not is deemed to be unworthy since it is clearly from those that 'simply lack credibility.'

Got it

He has made dozens of comments that “lack credibility”.  

[Guest]

7 hours ago, jetdriven said:

He has made dozens of comments that “lack credibility”.  

As has everyone who posts here, you and me included.

Clarence

[PTK]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

As has everyone who posts here, you and me included.

Clarence

You, Clarence are a gift and an to asset to MS. One of the very few that I can count on one hand. Thank you for sharing your knowledge, your wisdom and expertise so selflessly.  

[carusoam]

If we wait to write the perfect post...

If we over react...

If we accidentally criticize...

If we see something that nobody else is seeing...   (eagle eye award )

If we lose sight of the issue...
 

If we think it only happens to the other guys...

If we think we are being singled out...

If we get disappointed...

 

 

Know that we have come a loooong way...

Know that there is still a long way to go...

Know that it takes effort...

Know that not everyone is perfect...

Know that not every day is going to be a perfect day...

Know that Siri can change words from does into doesn’t automatically without warning...

Know that we can all do better...
 

Know that we often miss the various ways what we write can be interpreted or mis-interpreted...
 

know that we are often focussed on the issue, we lose sight of the people in the room... (multi-tasking while writing)

 

Proof reading your posts after you push send... often helps... 

Proof reading somebody else’s post after they pushed send...  (DMs are great... I get a few, often... )
 

We have learned how human we are...

If we forget how human we are...  We get to repeat all the mishaps that are possible...

 

Being human comes with its challenges... 

I wouldn’t trade it for anything...  

PP thoughts only, not a forum writing expert...

Good morning MS! and Best regards,

-a-