Gear Up Landings

[EricJ]

6 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

We can't.

Even if we had a system like the Arrow had that automatically extended the gear below a certain speed, it can malfunction.  And having a system like that might build a habit of forgetting to lower the handle because the system saved us.

The Arrow auto-extends were problematic in dropping at inopportune times, and most, if not all, have been disabled and placarded.   The Arrow II I used to fly was that way, i.e., the auto-extend was disabled and placarded.

16 minutes ago, Nick Pilotte said:

I know this isn’t a Mooney but it evidently happens with bigger boys too.  This just happened at KDAB. 
Sliding down the runway

I'm wondering whether that was a result of a failure rather than just forgetting.   I've seen other videos of Hawkers sliding down the runway trailing fire like that, but it was after they exhausted efforts to get the gear down.    I listened the other day to Scottsdale tower when a Falcon did a low pass for a gear check due to one gear not getting a green light.   They went away for a little while to execute their checklists and then came back and said they were confident their gear was down despite no confirmation from the light.    They landed without incident, but this seems to be not all that unusual for the jets, too.

 

[Bob Weber]

I got to watch a Lady put a Navajo on the ground gear up, she even bumped the starter on one of the engines hoping to minimize damage. I shook her hand.

Thankfully I have never been involved with an unintentional gear up landing, I can only imagine surprised realization..

I did however experience the the long anticipation, and unknown outcome of a nosegear failure in a C310, after scuffing up two centerline stripes, and minimal damage, the owner pilot told me he wants me there if this ever happens again.. The pitot tube resides in my office today!

[Nick Pilotte]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

The Arrow auto-extends were problematic in dropping at inopportune times, and most, if not all, have been disabled and placarded.   The Arrow II I used to fly was that way, i.e., the auto-extend was disabled and placarded.

I'm wondering whether that was a result of a failure rather than just forgetting.   I've seen other videos of Hawkers sliding down the runway trailing fire like that, but it was after they exhausted efforts to get the gear down.    I listened the other day to Scottsdale tower when a Falcon did a low pass for a gear check due to one gear not getting a green light.   They went away for a little while to execute their checklists and then came back and said they were confident their gear was down despite no confirmation from the light.    They landed without incident, but this seems to be not all that unusual for the jets, too.

 

It was a Citation Mustang. I know an owner of one and have looked at the manual before.   In y non professional eyes, there is a nitrogen bottle that would release the locks that hold the gear up and also charge the hydraulic system to blow the gear down if there was a hydraulic failure.  I think you’d have to have multiple lines damaged to prevent even a partial deployment of the backup system.  I don’t know if the airport knew there was a problem until the flames were present. There was an edit in the video that cut between the time the plane stopped and the time the trucks rolled.  

[Mooneymite]

Gear up Mooney at JYO.

Anyone know any details?

Ovation?

Edited February 21, 2020 by Mooneymite

[Alan Fox]

Here is one that works for me , but will be unpopular here , Have the plane fully configured for landing , before entering the pattern...

[hammdo]

Brian Lloyd agrees with you @Alan Fox

-Don

[Ricky_231]

54 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

Gear up Mooney at JYO.

Anyone know any details?

Ovation?

Yep - Ovation. My buddy and I were on the ramp about to taxi out to the runway when we saw it touchdown and the fireworks that ensued. We ran out to the plane to check on the pilot, and he and his passenger were already out of the plane. Everyone was alright.

Pilot told us he had gear down and indicating and that it collapsed on touchdown.

I left the airport at around 8:30p and they were still trying to figure out how to move it. Last I heard was someone was going to bring a crane and 2 flatbeds to pick it up from the runway.

 

 

[MooneyMitch]

8 minutes ago, Alan Fox said:

Here is one that works for me , but will be unpopular here , Have the plane fully configured for landing , before entering the pattern...

My method...... with multiple checks as I proceed on toward my landing.

So far, so good.......knowing nothing is perfect .

[MooneyMitch]

Just now, Ricky_231 said:

Yep - Ovation. My buddy and I were on the ramp about to taxi out to the runway when we saw it touchdown and the fireworks that ensued. We ran out to the plane to check on the pilot, and he and his passenger were already out of the plane. Everyone was alright.

Pilot told us he had gear down and indicating and that it collapsed on touchdown.

I left the airport at around 8:30p and they were still trying to figure out how to move it. Last I heard was someone was going to bring a crane and 2 flatbeds to pick it up from the runway.

 

 

Oh my!  Further damage to follow .  

[carusoam]

51 minutes ago, Alan Fox said:

Here is one that works for me , but will be unpopular here , Have the plane fully configured for landing , before entering the pattern...

Same here... came with the transition training...

The additional weight and cleaner aero of the Ovation makes slowing down to pattern speed a more thought out in advance procedure...

 

No fear about the engine quitting in the traffic pattern... for landing...

The only way to get a Mooney engine to croak during the landing procedure... don’t feed it!
 

on that note... there is a way to not feed the engine... 

 

One of the reasons we put the fuel on the fullest tank... (gumps)

If you only have a few gallons in the tank... when you point the nose towards the numbers... the fuel moves towards the leading edge, away from the fuel pick-up... you have technically unported the fuel pick-up...

You have to be really paying attention.  The engine isn’t really loud at idle... so when it goes silent, you may not notice...

When you flip the fuel selector, and fuel pump switch... it takes a few seconds to respond... because it is at idle...

You have already surprised yourself with a low fuel challenge... you don’t really want to Go-Around since you might be really out of fuel...

 

Fun times with an Old M20C with crappy fuel level gauges, on a Maintenance flight around the pattern...

It takes more than a few gallons in each tank to go around the pattern...   

File that in the number of ways you can unport the fuel pick-up...

 

All that to say... put the gear down early, fear not the engine dying... During the landing phase...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Bob - S50]

Abeam the numbers or glideslope intercept for me. Then repeat 7500+ times.

[Bob Weber]

5 minutes ago, Bob - S50 said:

Abeam the numbers or glideslope intercept for me. Then repeat 7500+ times.

I used to fly with a grumpy older than me pilot that would scold me when I waved my three fingers at the gear lights multiple times prior to touchdown, he claimed it was a waste of time.

[carusoam]

The grumpy old codger was right, 9999/10000 times...

Pointing out the green light lit, wastes a few seconds of life... that was going by whether you wagged a finger or not...

But... if wagging your finger, caught a GU landing before it happened, that one time... you are AMUs ahead...!

 

Statistically speaking... wagging your finger wouldn’t be a waste of time if it keeps you from landing GU...

Now... who wants to be the first to let grumpy know, or just let the old dog lie...  

You know what grumpy was going to say if you landed GU on his watch...?

 

If it is true we can’t prevent GU landings... then it becomes a challenge to put them off until after our last days of flying... 
 

eat well, rest well, spread out the challenges, breath, this helps you deal with cognitive errors before they happen...

PP thoughts only, not a cognitive therapist...

Best regards,

-a-

[Mooney in Oz]

All that is needed as a final defence is to make it habitual after doing a GUMPs or whatever is your preferred memorised flow or even if you don’t have one, is to use a Landing Checklist that includes Gear - Down.

[Bob - S50]

1 hour ago, Bob Weber said:

I used to fly with a grumpy older than me pilot that would scold me when I waved my three fingers at the gear lights multiple times prior to touchdown, he claimed it was a waste of time.

I would never scold for that.  That is another good way to burn calories!

[Bob - S50]

Now that I think of it, the Air Force used to have us do something that civilians never do.  At towered airports (the only kind we flew to) the call on base was "Callsign, base, gear down, landing type".  Verbalize the gear down call over the radio and tower used binoculars to visually check the gear down.

In 3 years of teaching T37's I only had one student, one time, forget the gear.  In the Tweet the IP could mash a button and make a radio call without the student hearing what we said.  I told the controller that I knew our gear was up and asked him to send us around on short final.  He did.  When the student went to raise the gear and found the handle already up, it sunk in pretty well.  I doubt he ever made that mistake again.  I didn't even bust him on the ride and I was affectionately (or not affectionately) known as "Hatchet Patch".

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, Bob - S50 said:

Now that I think of it, the Air Force used to have us do something that civilians never do.  At towered airports (the only kind we flew to) the call on base was "Callsign, base, gear down, landing type".  Verbalize the gear down call over the radio and tower used binoculars to visually check the gear down.

In 3 years of teaching T37's I only had one student, one time, forget the gear.  In the Tweet the IP could mash a button and make a radio call without the student hearing what we said.  I told the controller that I knew our gear was up and asked him to send us around on short final.  He did.  When the student went to raise the gear and found the handle already up, it sunk in pretty well.  I doubt he ever made that mistake again.  I didn't even bust him on the ride and I was affectionately (or not affectionately) known as "Hatchet Patch".

I probably shouldn't say this in case somebody on the list were to fly with me, but on all transition trainings there will come a time near the end of the training when usually in a left turn in the pattern, (but sometimes in a right turn) due to position of the circuit breakers where I will pull the gear actuator circuit breaker along with the gear and stall warning breakers (they're lined up in a row next to each other) and casually cover the breakers with my hand on the glare shield.  As the student puts the gear handle in the down position I'll distract with some relevant comment, and wait and see what happens.  2 or 3 times out of 10 when on final with the throttle at idle and still going too fast, I'll comment that we're about to have a $45,000 landing.  Hopefully, that startling revelation will be enough to cause the students to remember to check the gear down light on every landing.  It's a lesson even to those who realize something is wrong.  In addition to being a lesson in checking for the light in the gear down position, it's a lesson in " Pitch + Power + Configuration = Performance.  And, yes, I am VERY careful to push the breakers back in after the exercise.

[Ibra]

5 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

I doubt he ever made that mistake again.  I didn't even bust him on the ride and I was affectionately (or not affectionately) known as "Hatchet Patch".

The difference between military/commercial training and flying is that pilots tend to be current as hell, not much of an issue dropping the gear when one is flying similar missions and doing 10h/week

GA private flying is a bit of currency/mission jungle, that brings additional risks: I recall rolling yoke to turn on ground for about 3 seconds as the aircraft started to move forward after start (I stopped flying for 6 months and I really should had a current pilot/CFI sitting next to me that day, but luckily that flight was about slowly regaining currency than trying something fancy)

Edited February 21, 2020 by Ibra

[midlifeflyer]

2 minutes ago, Ibra said:

The difference between military/commercial training and flying is that pilots tend to be current as hell, not much of an issue dropping the gear when one is flying similar missions and doing 10h/week

So I walk out on the ramp one day and there's this Metroliner with local charter company logo and bent props....

[epsalant]

Does anyone have a sense of the following?

1) What percent of gear-up landings are pilot error?

2) in the gear up landings that are pilot error, in what percent is the gear alarm ignored?

I think we should be able to eliminate a significant percentage of the gear up landings in which the alarm is sounding.

If this (Gear-Up Alarm Sounding--GUAS) is the case with most gear ups, and I don't know that it is, then maybe we can do something to reduce insurance rates...

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[Ibra]

33 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

So I walk out on the ramp one day and there's this Metroliner with local charter company logo and bent props....

That is a proof you can't reduce the number of occurrences to zero (they just happen ) I expect gear incidents in GA to be higher than Part135/121 (don't have data just speculating). although most of GA fleet is fixed gear while commuters/airliners are only retractable gear, but it is hard to compare the two but I guess the big guys benefit a lot from high pilot currency, standard fleet/training, still few do fail 

If all GA aircraft were RG, will the number of gear up incidents increase or decrease? The answer is not intuitive at all...

Edited February 21, 2020 by Ibra

[Ross Taylor]

On our '66 E, the stall warning and gear warning alerts are the same too.  I like the idea of a difference between them...  I'll look into changing that.  I love how much I learn here at MS!

[steingar]

This is so funny reading this.  Last night I went for the local EAA club meeting, we had the Chief Tower controller.  Apparently a Bo landed gear up just the day before.  He felt bad he didn't see and prevent it, he said the guy was landing while he (the controller) expected him to be a quarter mile out.  Airplanes  come in fast with out the gear.

[Bob Weber]

On the way back to Grand Junction from Moab during a certification flight for a shiny new KNS 80 installation I did in a T210, I noticed the gear trailing when I made my last enroute check at a railroad tunnel. I immediately looked and saw the gear handle in the up position, and the gear breaker was out. I questioned the pilot and he just started resetting the breaker. I told him to stop and pulled the POH out. I pumped like crazy until the mains looked right but the nose in the mirror couldn't be verified. As we approached GJT, we were instructed to do a low, slow flyby down the main runway's taxiway to verify that nosegear. By this time all of the Weststar aviation personnel were on the ramp waiting for the show. I was talking to the mechanic with the hand held when he verified the nosegear looked good just as the pilot cranked that aircraft into a steep climbing turn, gear out, flaps on approach, going slow into terrain that climbed thousands of feet above us. He said "hey they were looking for a show" I never flew with him again, he was fired later for lighting off a King Air with all the plugs still in it.

 

Edited February 21, 2020 by Bob Weber

[jlunseth]

18 hours ago, Alan Fox said:

Here is one that works for me , but will be unpopular here , Have the plane fully configured for landing , before entering the pattern...

No, I think you have lots of support.