Lets clearly establish the used 430W market

[chriscalandro]

It's been debated over and over again what a used 430W is worth.  You have the sellers who think it's worth gold, and the buyers who think its worth Zinc.

What is your preferred option?

This is designed so installation costs are the same given your current situation (no gps vs replacement gps.)

 

I removed the $4500 430 option so it doesn't skew the results of the 6500 430.  The real question is who would pay up to 6500 for a used 430 vs other options.

Also edited for spelling...

Edited January 1, 2020 by chriscalandro

[kortopates]

Reach out to Jimmy Garrison of All American to find out what he's valuing them in the fleet today. I don't really know, but I got 6K each from my avionics shop when I upgraded to the GTN's a few years back. So probably more than you think.


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[MIm20c]

I think the 355 is real competition to the 430w, 440, and even the 650. However, it’s still around the $6k threshold.  Not sure many 430’s are still bringing 6.5k on the used market, my guess is in the mid to upper 5’s.
I still feel the 430w/530w is a huge asset if it’s already installed in the panel. With a g3x screen it expands the capabilities with being able to transfer flight plans, adjust frequencies, backup gps, and large mfd. I would have no problem building an full panel around the 430w, a simple sl40 com and a old 330es transponder. 

[Ragsf15e]

Also, if you’ve already got a 430w in the panel, you’re much more likely to repair it, get a used one or go avidyne 440 because those options require almost no installation.   A 650 is a different beast.

If I had nothing, I’d get a 650.  Since I already have a 430w, I’d send it to garmin for repairs.

[Yetti]

Easily accessible data to answer your question.  Polls are just opinions.  http://www.avionicslist.com/garmin430.php

[PJClark]

Hmmm..., my G3X cannot adjust  the frequencies  on my #2 which is a 430W.  Am I missing something? 

[M016576]

440 with taws and WiFi/Bt.  You’ll be hard pressed to find a better value.

[MIm20c]

6 hours ago, PJClark said:

Hmmm..., my G3X cannot adjust  the frequencies  on my #2 which is a 430W.  Am I missing something? 

There is a capability chart that I’m having a hard time finding right now. IIRC it said you can tune frequencies but not flip to active on the gns WAAS units. 

[tigers2007]

I wouldn’t pay much more than zinc price and always consider the 175/355/375/650 prices.
“For just a little bit more you could get the XXX”.
Remember, the installation cost for a 430W is very close to that of a 650. I’m guessing slightly less for a 175 and 355 due to no VHF Navigator.
The MS’rs pushed me to a GTN and I never looked back.


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[Davidv]

I share the thoughts on the 355, the all in price installed should be about 40% less than the 650 and you're just missing the nav radio.

1) With all of the GPS approaches today as well as more VORs being decommissioned you probably don't need more than 1 nav radio (I'm assuming you already have another nav radio source)

2) You're getting a Garmin unit that was developed in 2019 with the latest hardware and software.  Garmin is going to be fully supporting the unit for way longer than you will probably own your plane.

The 430 was introduced in 1998. 

[aviatoreb]

I just don't get how today, a 15+ year old piece of electronics - a 430 - is still selling for 60-70% the price of the modern equipment - 650 etc - especially considering there is still also a significant install cost that further closes the percentage difference cost, and also the fact that it may be that a 430 will before long not be supported/repairable.  Not to mention it is old technology even if still functional.  I would get it if it were say 30%, but 60%?!  70%?!!!

[KSMooniac]

Yet they keep selling for North of 6 AMU...

I believe Garmin has been working on developing more replacement parts to keep the support going for a very long time. Hopefully that is true as it is the KX170 of this century.

I still don't feel compelled to upgrade my 530W/430W combo.

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[aviatoreb]

10 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

Yet they keep selling for North of 6 AMU...
 

They do - so clearly the market is speaking.  I don't understand it - but so it is.

[MIm20c]

1 hour ago, Davidv said:

1) With all of the GPS approaches today as well as more VORs being decommissioned you probably don't need more than 1 nav radio (I'm assuming you already have another nav radio source)

I think that’s part of the reason for the higher price on the 430’s. To have a modern secondary nav/com installed is very expensive. I’m currently using a 430w/155 in my C but the BK has a display that dims at night too much. The 155/165’s are not even worth fixing anymore and that leaves you with no backup nav (which I feel is very important).

[aviatoreb]

2 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

I think that’s part of the reason for the higher price on the 430’s. To have a modern secondary nav/com installed is very expensive. I’m currently using a 430w/155 in my C but the BK has a display that dims at night too much. The 155/165’s are not even worth fixing anymore and that leaves you with no backup nav (which I feel is very important).

The 430 are still nice and functional and I had one and my plan was to keep using it until it needed to be fixed.  About 2 years ago the screen went bad, so rather than fix it, I replaced it with a 650.  I would definitely keep on in my panel if it were still there.  I would not buy and install de neuvo.

[Marauder]

I just don't get how today, a 15+ year old piece of electronics - a 430 - is still selling for 60-70% the price of the modern equipment - 650 etc - especially considering there is still also a significant install cost that further closes the percentage difference cost, and also the fact that it may be that a 430 will before long not be supported/repairable.  Not to mention it is old technology even if still functional.  I would get it if it were say 30%, but 60%?!  70%?!!!

Easy. If you have a captive audience, what other used GPS are you going to buy? An old Apollo? A M3 Northstar?

Garmin being the gorilla in the GA GPS market has created a unique problem for themselves. How do you compete with your own old equipment? Do you orphan the support by declaring your OOPS can’t support them any longer? They tried that and got a backlash from fleet users. One tactic they have been using is to increase the price of converting non-WAAS versions. Do you really think there was a part price increase that took the price from $1500 to $3000 in a couple of years? It’s a strategy to get people to say “I ain’t paying $3000 to upgrade a 20 year old product”. And ask, “what does it cost for a new one?”

So what is your strategy without discounting your new products? Ah, you introduce watered down versions of your premiere product. The challenge is “what if someone still wants a full GPS/COM version?” You go see Alan and anyone else that sells used avionics.

This is why I like competition in this market place. Yeah, there is significant initial certification costs that they need to recoup. But there is a break point where it turns into pure profit. I really wonder what their GM and net profit are on these products. Surely enough to fund significant R&D to find ways to help us open our wallets a little wider.

If you look at the tablet market. Everyone think Apple is the king of sales in this market. They are not. Due to high market prices they command, they let Samsung and others take a nice piece of the tablet pie. So, as a consumer you have a decision point. Do you buy a cross platform Apple tablet that works seamlessly across all your Apple devices or do you pay a third of the cost for a tablet that doesn’t have all of the cool factors.

Apple’s solution to this has been to enter the refurbished product market. Here is a real life example. I went to upgrade my 2 year old Apple iPad Pro to a 12.9 version. The trade in value they offered was $270. What? $270 for a product they sold to me for $1000 exactly 2 years ago? You go out to their website, you can find my 2 year old refurbished iPad Pro being sold for $800. BTW - I didn’t trade my iPad in, I gave it to my daughter for a Christmas gift. She was struggling to find the money to upgrade her original iPad.


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[steingar]

I’d rather a new box with a warranty than an old one for the same money.

[Jerry 5TJ]

Perhaps the market prices are driven up by replacement of failed, unrepairable 430s.  It is much cheaper to slide in a working used unit than to rewire for a new model.  

If the Avionics shop gives you a choice — $6K to swap your dead 430 for a used replacement or $20K for a new installation GTN650 — it’s a way to get back aloft quickly. 

[aviatoreb]

7 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Perhaps the market prices are driven up by replacement of failed, unrepairable 430s.  It is much cheaper to slide in a working used unit than to rewire for a new model.  

If the Avionics shop gives you a choice — $6K to swap your dead 430 for a used replacement or $20K for a new installation GTN650 — it’s a way to get back aloft quickly. 

I was offered $6k for a new 650 installed in exchange for my broken 430w.  Which is what I went for.  Remembering that it was not zero dollars to repair my 430.  Also im sure a slide in idf440 would have been cheaper.

[PJClark]

Well if you can find it I'm all ears.  I poked my avionics installers very hard to make that happen and they say it can't!

3 hours ago, MIm20c said:

There is a capability chart that I’m having a hard time finding right now. IIRC it said you can tune frequencies but not flip to active on the gns WAAS units. 

 

[carusoam]

Chris,

Many planes got the equivalent of the 430 navigator, a BK KLN89,90,94 unfortunately, no slide in replacement... for the non-waas box...
 

Let’s see....

with a 6amu 430w, you get...

• nav
• com
• waas

Probably the lowest cost device available with all of these skills... WAAS / vertical guidance being the most important reason for buying this box...

you also get...

• old
• archaic
• end of life
• full cost of a new install for some panels

If I were to make a snap decision to get WAAS capability today... Avidyne440.   New, modern, WAAS, lower cost than than the big G competitor...

If short on excess AMU, installing a 430W today... leaves the door open to upgrading to an Avidyne later down the airway...

WAAS is great for a few things... if you need an ADSB out source or If you have an IR or working on your IR, many newer procedures are going waas based...

When discussing used boxes it may be helpful to invite the MS guy with a shelf full of various used boxes for insight...  @Alan Fox

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

9 hours ago, PJClark said:

Hmmm..., my G3X cannot adjust  the frequencies  on my #2 which is a 430W.  Am I missing something? 

If you can get full modern functionality out of a 15 year old box, that never had that capability on day one... that would be most impressive!

There were always electronics sold with extra plugs, ports and buttons that promised magical updates in the future... then never appeared...

If it is ever going to happen... sticking with one manufacturer is going to be the way...

Always check to see if you have the latest greatest firmware, software, and wires connected...

Always be concerned with changing firmware... some skills may get lost intentionally by firmware updates... depending on the supplier...

PP thoughts only, not an avionics guy...

Best regards,

-a-

[gsxrpilot]

For anyone with a 430W in the panel today, you can upgrade to an IFD440 for less than $6000 installed, today. It will included BT/Wifi so no FS210 required either. And most of us who have used both, prefer the 440 over the 650 anyway.

My rational was that prices aren't coming down on the new boxes. And the value is still relatively high on the old boxes. So when offered a good trade-in, and with no install cost and no down time in the Avionics shop. It just makes sense. I get to enjoy a modern, updated panel. And I can let someone else worry about the market/value of the old GNS boxes.

[Marauder]

For anyone with a 430W in the panel today, you can upgrade to an IFD440 for less than $6000 installed, today. It will included BT/Wifi so no FS210 required either. And most of us who have used both, prefer the 440 over the 650 anyway.
My rational was that prices aren't coming down on the new boxes. And the value is still relatively high on the old boxes. So when offered a good trade-in, and with no install cost and no down time in the Avionics shop. It just makes sense. I get to enjoy a modern, updated panel. And I can let someone else worry about the market/value of the old GNS boxes.

That was the smartest thing Avidyne did when they entered the market to compete with Garmin. With installation costs a significant factor, a slide in replacement was the smart move. Same thing PS Engineering did with the GMA slide in replacements.


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[gsxrpilot]

3 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Same thing PS Engineering did with the GMA slide in replacements.

Yep. Upgrading my audio panel was the last thing on my list. The GMA340 that came in the plane is an excellent audio panel. But PS Engineering just made it too easy upgrade to the very top of the line. And then Chase at @Avionics Source made it even easier to trade up. So in a weak moment, while watching your video about the 450A... and just a couple of days later I'm sliding out the GMA and sliding in the 450A. Now it's a 450B and truthfully, it's been the nicest upgrade, in a pretty well upgraded panel.

https://youtu.be/b2KKQO5lvcE