Surefly SIM4N install in an M20C PIREP

[Marauder]

I also just had one installed at annual, so there’s another ebay left  bendix mag... had same issue getting a new left slick harness.  Ended up buying a new Kelly slick harness for both sides as that was cheaper than a single sided champion harness anyway and as you said, nobody has the single side in stock.  New slick harness from Kelly (total for both sides) was $320 on spruce.  So theres a right slick harness for ebay.  Along with a sos and a vacuum pump, I’m gonna fill up ebay.  
Strangely, my sos came off real easy as it appears to be one of the only firewall items with fixed nutplates.  We did leave the sos wiring in place, just capped it.  I couldn’t justify messing with the switch behind the panel.  Too many wires to mess up.
Ive got an F so had to take apart the interior and route the wire to the battery in the back and then up through the firewall.  That was the hardest part of the whole installation.

Thanks for pointing out they are Kelly harnesses. I have a new set of Kelly harnesses on my plane. Do you know if there are any issues with the larger (3/4”) plugs? I think standard are 5/8” but I upgraded mine to 3/4” when I went with the fine wires.


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[J0nathan225]

29 minutes ago, Immelman said:

Just curious have you contacted surefly on your plug issue?

I may be in the market for one of these soon and yours is the only concerning report, so I'm very curious to hear what the problem might be.

I think it's the 37BY plugs with the small gap and surefly, perfect storm maybe?   Surefly recommended a larger gap .036 and also fine wire plugs.  I'm getting the normal 38BE's for the Mag side and 4x 38S fine wires in tomorrow. I'll hopefully report back tomorrow or thurday.

[Ragsf15e]

4 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

Thanks for pointing out they are Kelly harnesses. I have a new set of Kelly harnesses on my plane. Do you know if there are any issues with the larger (3/4”) plugs? I think standard are 5/8” but I upgraded mine to 3/4” when I went with the fine wires.


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Honestly I don’t know.  I think they were fine with either plug size but i don’t have access to the install manual right now.

Either a Kelly or Champion harness will work, as long as it’s a “slick” type.  Kelly just ended up being quicker and more cost efficient.

 I have tempest fine wire with normal gap, so I’m hoping not to see plug issues!

[Ragsf15e]

7 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

On my F, the SOS is mounted on a plate that is attached to the firewall. It is in one of the most difficult locations under our panels to reach (behind the avionics stack and up high). My mechanic and I had to loosen the plate to get to the nuts on the voltage regulator. There was not much play in the wires and of course over the years, they had mounted other stuff on the panel.




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Mine (68 F) was in similar place pilots side, high, behind the defroster tube.  I took everything apart and got “access” to the back of the sos before realizing that there were nut plates there.  We simply unhooked the wires, unscrewed the sos, and then reinserted the screws and capped the wires.  Every plane is different!

[carusoam]

Interesting summary of a few challenges...

1) delay in providing ignition related to the electronic mag... causes a skip/back fire....

1a) The special Mag switches that are available allow a method of gently switching to the electronic mag to not catch it sleeping...

2) Pics of two really dirty/deposited spark plugs....

3) Getting the right mag wires in advance to minimize extra cost of buying more wires than you need....

Things to get to know a bit better as we gain more electronic mag experience...

Best regards,

-a-

[J0nathan225]

Well runup complete all went well so far, but that was the same story coming out of falcon field on Sunday. Full power climb to 8k+ tomorrow to fully check everything. I will hopefully be able to go LoP and do a lean in-flight check.

[47U]

The OP (DXB)... The only problem I see so far:

When switching from right (conventional mag) to left (Surefly) during a mag check, there is a slight but perceptible lag between turning the ignition key and the Surefly generating spark. This lag did not create an issue during standard ground runup. However, it caused a definite backfire during a subsequent in-flight mag check at the cruise power settings noted above with the engine maximally leaned out.  I suspect this issue will preclude me from doing in flight mag checks, or at least force me to do them at lower power to avoid beating up my exhaust.

When going from the R mag to the L mag inflight, would it prevent the 'sleeping' e-mag backfire if you went from R to BOTH and then back to L?  

My IA told me one of the locals put a Surefly in his Archer and is getting the backfire during mag checks on the ground.  I'm not sure of his mag check sequence, though.  I do know this, if I tell the comptroller I need 3 or 4 amu for a new PF exhaust because my new Surefly backfired and put a hole in my muffler... hmmm... maybe there's a evil plan here...

tom

[DXB]

24 minutes ago, 47U said:

When going from the R mag to the L mag inflight, would it prevent the 'sleeping' e-mag backfire if you went from R to BOTH and then back to L?  

My sequence is actually BOTH-LEFT-BOTH-RIGHT-BOTH.   The backfire happens between RIGHT and BOTH.  Problem with the old conventional ignition switch is that to get from RIGHT to BOTH, you have to go through LEFT, so the right mag always gets grounded momentarily while the left is lagging in firing.   

[carusoam]

Thanks for the explanation of how that technically happens, dev!

That makes the independent mag switches a little more enticing...

balanced off with the ease of accidentally leaving a mag on... no way to remove a key, and put on the glare shield...

Somebody in the aviation switch business is going to have a really cool idea for this... 

The Bendix switch was a beautiful idea for its day!

Even the GM ignition switch saw modernization after Y2K...

Best regards,

-a-

[PT20J]

From a June 23, 2019 post on BeechTalk:

I talked to Surefly again last week (sent mine back for an upcoming software update that changes the "wake" delay during mag switching from the current 400ms down to 10ms to minimize some of the risk of backfire/misfire some of them have).

Maybe this fixes the backfire problem?

Skip

[J0nathan225]

@DXB I'll be interested to hear if your BY plugs give you any issues. So far I was only able to go up for 20 mins the other day and did a full power climb to 8500. Everything seems to be fine since switching to larger gapped fine wires for the surefly side. 

[DXB]

5 hours ago, J0nathan225 said:

@DXB I'll be interested to hear if your BY plugs give you any issues. So far I was only able to go up for 20 mins the other day and did a full power climb to 8500. Everything seems to be fine since switching to larger gapped fine wires for the surefly side. 

Yes will let you know if I have any issues - plane is in annual now and may not see much use the rest of the winter.  If nothing comes up after about 25-50 hours, I will pull bottom plugs and compare deposits between the ones fired by Surefly vs. conventional mag.

On 12/22/2019 at 1:30 PM, PT20J said:

From a June 23, 2019 post on BeechTalk:

I talked to Surefly again last week (sent mine back for an upcoming software update that changes the "wake" delay during mag switching from the current 400ms down to 10ms to minimize some of the risk of backfire/misfire some of them have).

Maybe this fixes the backfire problem?

Skip

I actually saw this before I had the Surefly installed - the issue here was at normal runup I think (which is ok for me). My unit is brand new so presumably it has that fix already. I only saw a backfire during in flight mag check at cruise power.   

[LANCECASPER]

On 12/23/2019 at 1:19 PM, DXB said:

My unit is brand new so presumably it has that fix already. I only saw a backfire during in flight mag check at cruise power.   

I wouldn't assume that until you verify it. If you bought from a Distributor sometimes they sit on the shelf for awhile. Is there a sticker on the unit that shows mod levels?

[ragedracer1977]

My surefly is supposed to arrive next Monday.  Any recommendations on a shop to install it, and estimated cost? I could probably do it myself, but dragging the IA around to get the 337 signed off is sometimes more pain than it's worth

[DXB]

2 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

I wouldn't assume that until you verify it. If you bought from a Distributor sometimes they sit on the shelf for awhile. Is there a sticker on the unit that shows mod levels?

I bought straight from company but will call them to confirm anyway

[Bob_Belville]

9 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

My surefly is supposed to arrive next Monday.  Any recommendations on a shop to install it, and estimated cost? I could probably do it myself, but dragging the IA around to get the 337 signed off is sometimes more pain than it's worth

@AGL Aviation has done several now, including my E. 4 hours should be a good estimate for the install. Well, maybe a little more if the A&P has to remove interior side panel to run the wire to the battery.

FWIW, I have about 20 hours on the Surefly. Zero issues. I did not have to change harness or re-gap plugs. Tempest fine wires with about 500 hours on them.

[EricJ]

14 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

My surefly is supposed to arrive next Monday.  Any recommendations on a shop to install it, and estimated cost? I could probably do it myself, but dragging the IA around to get the 337 signed off is sometimes more pain than it's worth

Have you talked to any of the locals?   Munsey tells me he's booked for weeks right now, but I've seen Brad Power around lately and he'd probably be a good candidate (he's also an IA).

 

[McMooney]

16 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

My surefly is supposed to arrive next Monday.  Any recommendations on a shop to install it, and estimated cost? I could probably do it myself, but dragging the IA around to get the 337 signed off is sometimes more pain than it's worth

My mechanic after installing my surefly said it wasn't any more difficult than a normal mag, maybe easier.  stated the most difficult part was installing power from the batter in the tail.

 

just let your IA do it.

[ragedracer1977]

2 hours ago, EricJ said:

Have you talked to any of the locals?   Munsey tells me he's booked for weeks right now, but I've seen Brad Power around lately and he'd probably be a good candidate (he's also an IA).

 

I'll see if I can get on a schedule with one of them.  I'm not in a hurry.  Jim is a good dude, but sometimes it takes a week to track him down and meanwhile the plane can't be flown because it's missing a signature.  

I'd rather pay an IA to do it and sign off all at once.

[MisfitSELF]

I'm curious about the benefits of the "advance" timing feature.  If you only have one SureFly installed (assuming left side) isn't the right mag still set to a standard fixed timing of 20 or 25 degrees TDC (depending on your engine)?  Wouldn't it be better to match the fixed timing rather than your mags going off at potentially different times?

Also, can you combine the Electoair ignition switch with the SureFly Mag?

Thanks,

Bruce

[carusoam]

Bruce,

great question regarding the mixed timing...

I’m sure there is a reason why this is still a preferred method of improving fuel efficiency...

It would get better if both mags moved their timing...

For this deep of a flame front discussion... Ross is our usual go to guy for that...

Best regards,

-a-

[Igor_U]

On 12/16/2019 at 8:54 AM, DXB said:

My left Bendix mag failed in flight when I was far from home, leaving me to fly home commercial. Rather than replace it with a conventional mag, I got it swapped it for a Surefly, which I had planned to do at annual in couple weeks anyway.  Here's a PIREP:

Install:

- 4 hours labor seems pretty reasonable for just the mag alone (I paid more because of issues noted below)

 

Thanks for the PIREP

I'm about to install mine. Did you remove Shower of sparks? It seems many would leave it on and it is hard to remove on my F with 201 windshield. Was it just disconnected the Retard lead on the mag?

I wonder is SOS is still active (buzzing sound) when Key is on "both" or the leads are disconnected at the key switch?

 

[DXB]

15 minutes ago, Igor_U said:

Thanks for the PIREP

I'm about to install mine. Did you remove Shower of sparks? It seems many would leave it on and it is hard to remove on my F with 201 windshield. Was it just disconnected the Retard lead on the mag?

I wonder is SOS is still active (buzzing sound) when Key is on "both" or the leads are disconnected at the key switch?

 

I did not remove the SOS, just disconnected from ignition switch and from mag, so no buzz when on both.  I am debating whether to have it taken out entirely when panel gets opened up at end of month for some avionics work.  The pessimist-late adopter in me says just leave it there.   It would make it easier to go back to a regular mag.  

[ragedracer1977]

On 12/30/2019 at 11:51 PM, carusoam said:

Bruce,

great question regarding the mixed timing...

I’m sure there is a reason why this is still a preferred method of improving fuel efficiency...

It would get better if both mags moved their timing...

For this deep of a flame front discussion... Ross is our usual go to guy for that...

Best regards,

-a-

It seems like it wouldn't matter.  If the surefly is firing at 26 degrees and higher than TDC, the other mag will be firing well after the fuel has ignited.  It should just be a wasted spark.

[Ragsf15e]

3 hours ago, Igor_U said:

Thanks for the PIREP

I'm about to install mine. Did you remove Shower of sparks? It seems many would leave it on and it is hard to remove on my F with 201 windshield. Was it just disconnected the Retard lead on the mag?

I wonder is SOS is still active (buzzing sound) when Key is on "both" or the leads are disconnected at the key switch?

 

I just installed a Surefly and we did remove the SOS.  It was super simple.  I also have a 201 windshield, but wait for it, there were nut plates on the back of the panel!  Oh yeah!  Just two simple screws removed on the engine side and the sos popped off.  Unfortunately, I found out about the nutplates after I had removed the instrument glareshield and defrost vent tubing so I could get a hand/finger back there to hold the loose nut I assumed would be there.  None of that work was needed, but I still got cut hands.  

Last year I changed out the voltage regulator.  That most certainly did not have nut plates.  It’s luck of the draw.