Winter warm ups

[59Moonster]

First winter with my M20A. Just got moved out of my heated hangar into a T hangar without heat.

Manual says to get the oil to 100° before take off. Manual also says keep winter ground runs at 4 min maximum.

So after the 4 min. Do you just lower RPM and wait for the oil to get up to temp? What do you guys do? 

[MIm20c]

SOP for me is to use an electric heater to preheat the engine ~4 hours. I use a 7 day programmable timer hooked to a relay at one airport and a “beeper box” at the other airport.  I aim for 125 degrees before the run up and 140 before I take off. 

[59Moonster]

13 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

SOP for me is to use an electric heater to preheat the engine ~4 hours. I use a 7 day programmable timer hooked to a relay at one airport and a “beeper box” at the other airport.  I aim for 125 degrees before the run up and 140 before I take off. 

Thanks. Good to know. And what would you do if you flew somewhere else and couldn't do that?

[1964-M20E]

Well I rarely see below 40F when I go out to fly but After start set to 1000 to 1200 RPM while I'm doing run up checklist, programming flight plans, setting instruments etc.

Depending on where I am I'll begin my run up or taxi to the runup area as needed by the time run up is complete generally CHTs are above 250 oil temps are coming up and I'm ready to fly.

[jetdriven]

Later versions of the Lycoming operators manual says do not take off until the oil temperature is above 75°. That said, I like to see 250° CHT before I do the run-up and then after that, take off. Like John, I run the engine at 1200-1400 RPM on the ground. Multigrade oil helps greatly with cold starts.  It pumps faster, and throws everywhere sooner since its pretty thin even when cold.

[DonMuncy]

On the subject of pre-heating, I left my plane with TACAir at Centennial (APA) this week while in Colorado. When I got ready to leave yesterday, it was about 30 degrees F outside and I called and asked them to pre-heat my engine. Everyone on the desk acted like I was crazy. When I arrived, they said they were trying to get their cart to my plane, as they didn't routinely do pre-heats. They fooled around long enough, that the outside temperature got above 40. I cancelled the order and started it up. I would have thought that everyone around Denver would have done pre-heating as an everyday affair. Being a flatlander from Dallas, maybe I'm just not in the know.

[Bob_Belville]

I brought my ceramic heater with us to MA knowing that it would be cold on tie down. It was and I discovered that the heater was not on... the electrical receptacle was dead.

It was Saturday and no one around. So I started up with OAT at 32F and the engine probably several degrees lower. AS 100W. Ugg!

I look for oil temperature to be at least 140F before take off.

I’m sure I did not do the engine any good. Only time I’ve had to do that to this plane.


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[tigers2007]

I built the wireless control relay system mentioned here for $160. It is 4G and works with either AT&T or T-Mobile compatible SIMS. I think I pay like $36/yr for service? Anyways, I send a text message to the relay's telephone number and it activates the Reiff Hotstrips. Also, I keep a Honeywell HCE-100 heater running on the "LOW" setting (75 watts or so) sitting on the cabin floor. I built a simple thermostat control for that using some gang boxes and a "line control thermostat". Note that the Honeywell HCE-100 is probably the lowest wattage heater you can find on the consumer market. Most ONLY do 750/1500 watts. Keeping the cabin warm protects the instruments and it makes it comfortable in the cabin. The electricity cost is barely noticeable to. $11/mo higher electricity bill at $0.20/kW hour. 1.8kW per day. Plus it shuts off when it hits 50. It was -16 yesterday so its probably running 24/7. I put a blanket on the roof covering the bird. Oh, go to the goodwill store and buy a nice sleeping blanket for $5-10 to cover the engine and windscreen. The engine gets quit warm quickly with that. It also covers up the front air scoop too snugly around the prop.

[PT20J]

2 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Later versions of the Lycoming operators manual says do not take off until the oil temperature is above 75°.

Byron, where did you see that? - I can’t find it. In the current Lycoming manual for the IO-360 (attached), I only find the standard statement that it’s warm enough for takeoff when it accelerates without faltering (p 3-4}. Not saying you’re wrong - I just can’t find it. Maybe a different engine?

FWIW, minimum takeoff temps for all radials are 40C (104F) oil and 100C (212F) CHT. I usually go by that.

Skip

O-HO-IO-HIO-AIO & TIO-360 Oper Manual 60297-12.pdf

[jlunseth]

Why would “ground runs” be limited to 4 minutes?  Maybe it means your run up.  I live in MN, and when it is really cold, say 20 dF on down (we get quite a bit of below zero weather in mid-winter) I set the RPMs to around 1200, leaned to idle rise, and then sit on the ramp for awhile.  I don’t hurry to taxi or get off the ground.  My aircraft is a 231 (turbo). It has an. air/oil separator. One winter I decided to do some practice fast approaches, planning on landing at our local Bravo and hearing “keep your speed up.” I was in a hurry and did not let things warm up much before flying. I did one landing, and then on takeoff saw low oil pressure and a fast drop in oil temp.  I immediately landed and had oil streaks about 2 feet wide and stretching down both sides of the aircraft.  The diagnosis was that the air/oil separator had frozen up, and that blocks the breather tube (comes out of the separator).  The engine builds up compression when it runs and, lacking a way out, looks for any outlet, blowing out lots of oil.  It is important to let the engine compartment warm up, not just the engine itself.  I have been at -54 at altitude for two or three hours at a time and not had the separator or anything else freeze, as long as the engine compartment got good and warm before takeoff.  Don’t know if you have cowl flaps in an A, but I keep them closed on the ground in cold weather, the engine needs to be nice and warm before takeoff.  If winter is a 30 or 40 degree affair where you live, probably none of this is necessary, but it sure helps where I am.

Pre-heat is important, I pre-heat below 40 dF, but that is not a substitute for letting the engine compartment, brake fluid, etc. get warmed up also.

Edited December 13, 2019 by jlunseth

[skydvrboy]

3 hours ago, DonMuncy said:

On the subject of pre-heating, I left my plane with TACAir at Centennial (APA) this week while in Colorado. When I got ready to leave yesterday, it was about 30 degrees F outside and I called and asked them to pre-heat my engine. Everyone on the desk acted like I was crazy. When I arrived, they said they were trying to get their cart to my plane, as they didn't routinely do pre-heats. They fooled around long enough, that the outside temperature got above 40. I cancelled the order and started it up. I would have thought that everyone around Denver would have done pre-heating as an everyday affair. Being a flatlander from Dallas, maybe I'm just not in the know.

I had the same experience at Colorado Jet Center this weekend. They asked if I just needed it plugged in, so I’m guessing that’s how most preheat around there.  They offered to put it in the heated hangar at 3:00 AM for $37 which I gladly accepted.

[M20F]

Reif pre-heater and cover.  I have yet to find an airport where I can’t plug in at. 

[jetdriven]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

Byron, where did you see that? - I can’t find it. In the current Lycoming manual for the IO-360 (attached), I only find the standard statement that it’s warm enough for takeoff when it accelerates without faltering (p 3-4}. Not saying you’re wrong - I just can’t find it. Maybe a difference engine?

Skip

O-HO-IO-HIO-AIO & TIO-360 Oper Manual 60297-12.pdf 17.6 MB · 0 downloads

I know for sure it’s in the 1977 M20J POH. Later versions deleted that note altogether. I thought it was in the Lycoming operators manual. 

[carusoam]

Outside, in NJ...

Preheat is a requirement for starting when the temps get down to/below 20°F...

That’s when 100LL no longer wants to evaporate, and getting it started looks like a flooded start, but is really a starved for fuel vapor start...

The cart comes out with a propane torch set-up...a couple of batteries, and an electric fan, a big hose, and some foam sponges complete the deal....

Not very considerate of the engine or it’s lubrication...

For the M20C, it is all about warming those air intake tubes that leave the carb...

For fuel injected planes... heating the cylinder where the fuel injector is, is primary...

pre-heating long enough to get the oil warm... that’s for forever-planes, and people that don’t want a worn out engine... 

 

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

I brought my ceramic heater with us to MA knowing that it would be cold on tie down. It was and I discovered that the heater was not on... the electrical receptacle was dead.

It was Saturday and no one around. So I started up with OAT at 32F and the engine probably several degrees lower. AS 100W. Ugg!

I look for oil temperature to be at least 140F before take off.

I’m sure I did not do the engine any good. Only time I’ve had to do that to this plane.


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Didn’t you get in on the frenzy buy when we bought these? I carry it with me when I’m traveling around in the tundra.

It’s a great little generator. Not very heavy and can handle the Reiff Turbo version pre-heater.


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[ilovecornfields]

4 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

Didn’t you get in on the frenzy buy when we bought these? I carry it with me when I’m traveling around in the tundra.

 

 

 

 

 

It’s a great little generator. Not very heavy and can handle the Reiff Turbo version pre-heater.


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I want in on the next frenzy buy!

[Marauder]

I want in on the next frenzy buy!

When Home Depot had these on sale for $149, we cleaned them out. Sportsman Inverter generator. Think it is 1000 watt startup wattage.


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[tigers2007]

We talked about the 1000W (800W sustained) Sportsman inverter generator here. It is $169 at this time. Maybe you can get a 10% discount for being a ?

[steingar]

I bought a little heater thingie that sits inside the nose cowlings.  Runs when it's cold, shuts off when it gets warm enough.  I put in cowl plugs and put moving blankets over the nose.  I comet the hangar, engine is nice and warm and ready to go.  I usually throw another space heater indie the cockpit to warm it up.  However much the airplane heats up in taxi and sunup is how much it heats up.  I've been operating aircraft in Ohio winters this way for about 20 years.

[ArtVandelay]

Outside, in NJ...

Preheat is a requirement for starting when the temps get down to/below 20°F...

That’s when 100LL no longer wants to evaporate, and getting it started looks like a flooded start, but is really a starved for fuel vapor start...

I never preheated my car when I use to live up north, if traveling and you flew the previous day or two, do you really need to preheat?

 

 

Tom

[DonMuncy]

From what I have read, the "piston to cylinder clearance" problem is much worse on an air cooled engine than a water cooled. Thus the need for preheat. Maybe someone else can elucidate.

[EricJ]

11 hours ago, jetdriven said:

I know for sure it’s in the 1977 M20J POH. Later versions deleted that note altogether. I thought it was in the Lycoming operators manual. 

I haven't been able to find it in my  77 J POH.   It's not in the engine limitations section, and I can't find it elsewhere.   If you find it, let us know where.

When I was a lineboy at a busy club we had no access to preheaters, or generally heat of any kind, and our airplanes all slept outside on the ramp.   We did not have a hangar.   Some discretion and judicious use of the primer usually got things started on cold mornings.  I don't remember it ever taking long or doing anything special to get to temps prior to takeoff.

I live in AZ now, so it's generally not an issue for me.   Can't relate. 

[takair]

Regarding minimum takeoff oil temp, there seems to be at least some correlation between that temp and the fact that oil pressure gets near its high end limit.  I suspect that beyond the question of flow, high power at low oil temperature risks exceeding the high oil pressure limit.  Not exactly sure what the outcome would be, but it may start blowing seals and gaskets.  

[steingar]

2 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

I never preheated my car when I use to live up north, if traveling and you flew the previous day or two, do you really need to preheat?

Tom

Tom, someone should have told you this during your pilot training, it shouldn't be left up to a nimrod like me.  Our airplane engines are a mix of aluminum and steel.  Makes them lighter.  Problem is aluminum and steel change shape differently as they cool.  As a result, at a low enough temperature things don't fit as well as they might.  Try and start cold enough you can potentially start breaking things.

Car engines haven't got a lot of aluminum in them because it's expensive.  No differential cooling, so things still fit in the cold.  There are other issues like oil viscosity, but you can't break a car engine starting it in the cold.

I keep my engine warm since i'm not a fan of breaking it, nor am I a fan of long cranking sessions where I can break things.  Problem where  live is clear VFR days are usually really cold.  So I keep the engine warm.

[ArtVandelay]

I think almost every modern automobile engine today is aluminum (block & pistons)to save weight and improve fuel mileage, even trucks and diesels use aluminum. I’m wondering if this isn’t more urban mythology. I’m not talking severe cold ( less than 20°F) and as I said, been recently flown.

 

Tom