M20K 231 - fitting an engine monitor

[tmo]

I would like to ask the good people of MooneySpace for suggestions on rearranging the panel in my M20K 231 in a cost conscious way, as well as help on deciding on a engine monitor.  Any other hints for now and for the future are also most welcome.  By "cost conscious" I don't necessarily mean "cheapest possible", rather "inexpensive but sensible".  Work will likely be outsourced to a shop, a FAA A&P/IA is a rare sight at EPKP, one that would sign off my self-install even more so.

I currently have standard analog / vacuum instruments as pictured below; in the avionics rack: KMA24, GNS430W, KY197, KNS80, ADF; in the right panel: a FT101 fuel totalizer, the adjustment panel for the remote compass for the HSI, a WX950 stormscope, TIT, ELT, XPDR and a void.  The AP is a KFC200, which works well but is lacking, as far as I can tell, GPSS.  Everything works and I see no signs of something wanting to fail.

My primary goal for now is to install an engine monitor.  I do want a "primary replacement" unit, since the cost difference vs the non-primary units is likely close to fixing whatever gauge breaks first, and I want the recording of as many parameters as I can get.  I do not plan on removing the original gauges at this time.

I also need an intercom.  I don't think I can afford to replace the KMA with a modern unit, since it would probably mean major rewiring.  So a Telex PC4 or similar will most likely go above the AP annunciator panel.  Hooking it to the KMA should be simple enough.

In the future I do want to replace things that break with modern devices, if cost is not prohibitive and compatible with whatever remains, but future-proofing is not a primary requirement at this time, so let's not get too carried away.  Think more G5 (if it becomes a KI256 replacement) or Aspen, not G500.  GFC500 only when the KFC200 breaks beyond economic repair (hoping never...).

For the immediate task at hand - an engine monitor - I am thinking either a CGR30P/C combo (where the ADF indicator and the electric AI are) or a EDM900 (landscape across ADF and VOR, which gets moved to where the AI is).

When I try hard enough, I can imagine a MVP50 or a EDM930 in the right panel, but it is more rearranging of stuff and I'm not convinced that the ergonomics will work.  This is a stock M20K, with a GB1, so I expect it to need fairly continuous tweaking of the knobs.  I really don't see them in the avionics rack, I want to keep the KNS80 for now, and moving it, if even possible, is likely a major PITA.

I have, briefly, considered using a Dynon HDX / Garmin G3X / G500 as just engine monitors that I can expand into full glass cockpits later, but as others here proved, they won't really work in that capacity on a budget, and I am not ready to go "all in".

Thank you all in advance!

[Guitarmaster]

I would like to ask the good people of MooneySpace for suggestions on rearranging the panel in my M20K 231 in a cost conscious way, as well as help on deciding on a engine monitor.  Any other hints for now and for the future are also most welcome.  By "cost conscious" I don't necessarily mean "cheapest possible", rather "inexpensive but sensible".  Work will likely be outsourced to a shop, a FAA A&P/IA is a rare sight at EPKP, one that would sign off my self-install even more so.
I currently have standard analog / vacuum instruments as pictured below; in the avionics rack: KMA24, GNS430W, KY197, KNS80, ADF; in the right panel: a FT101 fuel totalizer, the adjustment panel for the remote compass for the HSI, a WX950 stormscope, TIT, ELT, XPDR and a void.  The AP is a KFC200, which works well but is lacking, as far as I can tell, GPSS.  Everything works and I see no signs of something wanting to fail.
My primary goal for now is to install an engine monitor.  I do want a "primary replacement" unit, since the cost difference vs the non-primary units is likely close to fixing whatever gauge breaks first, and I want the recording of as many parameters as I can get.  I do not plan on removing the original gauges at this time.
I also need an intercom.  I don't think I can afford to replace the KMA with a modern unit, since it would probably mean major rewiring.  So a Telex PC4 or similar will most likely go above the AP annunciator panel.  Hooking it to the KMA should be simple enough.
In the future I do want to replace things that break with modern devices, if cost is not prohibitive and compatible with whatever remains, but future-proofing is not a primary requirement at this time, so let's not get too carried away.  Think more G5 (if it becomes a KI256 replacement) or Aspen, not G500.  GFC500 only when the KFC200 breaks beyond economic repair (hoping never...).
For the immediate task at hand - an engine monitor - I am thinking either a CGR30P/C combo (where the ADF indicator and the electric AI are) or a EDM900 (landscape across ADF and VOR, which gets moved to where the AI is).
When I try hard enough, I can imagine a MVP50 or a EDM930 in the right panel, but it is more rearranging of stuff and I'm not convinced that the ergonomics will work.  This is a stock M20K, with a GB1, so I expect it to need fairly continuous tweaking of the knobs.  I really don't see them in the avionics rack, I want to keep the KNS80 for now, and moving it, if even possible, is likely a major PITA.
I have, briefly, considered using a Dynon HDX / Garmin G3X / G500 as just engine monitors that I can expand into full glass cockpits later, but as others here proved, they won't really work in that capacity on a budget, and I am not ready to go "all in".
Thank you all in advance!

Can't go wrong with a EDM-900

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[ArtVandelay]

Can't go wrong with a EDM-900

Being a 231 is 6 cylinders, I would do landscape mode.


Tom

[KSMooniac]

X2 for the EDM-900. I would lose the ADF, move the VOR over, KFC annunciator up, and put the EDM in the lower right location in a portrait layout. Better if you can get it in a landscape orientation, but portrait on the pilot side is good enough. No reason to keep the old instruments, either, IMO. You won't ever look at them, or miss them.

I would strongly encourage adding CiES fuel senders to the install kit. I wish I had.

Regarding intercom, you're looking at a lot of wiring anyway, so you're very likely better off stepping up to a modern PS Engineering unit, even used if you need to pinch pennies. I cannot tell you how much I love my PMA450A compared to my Garmin 340 that it replaced, and every other old kludge I've flown behind over the years. Considering installation cost, the difference in stepping up to modern isn't much greater. Think long term...and beg a ride with someone to demo a good unit, or check them out at a show. You might not realize it yet, but you really want a PSE unit!



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[Ragsf15e]

Saying everything you want and “cost conscious” in one sentence is like saying @Marauder wants to fly his airplane with 3 of his lady friends and be under max gross weight.  Ain’t gonna happen.

I like my EDM930, but the 900 is great too.  Couple G5s, Avidyne 440, you’ll be in great shape, but it won’t be cheap.

[KSMooniac]

I'll amend my recommendation a bit...definitely remove the old instruments above the 6-pack, install a filler panel and move the KFC annunciator above the KI256. Then put the EDM in landscape orientation on the lower right of the panel.

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[carusoam]

1) All in... good for installation cost control...

2) do you prefer big G?

3) do you prefer anyone but big G?

Best regards,

-a-

[tmo]

Thank you all; to summarily respond:

 - yes, if EDM900 then definitely landscape mode; I am still tempted by the format of the CGR30P/C, I'm somewhat surprised nobody voted for them; I'm waiting for my mechanic to offer his input on this as well;

 - good idea with moving the AP annunciator, if I decide to bite the bullet and replace the KMA24 with a PMA450B, which I might not, see below;

 - I have all four seats wired into the KMA24, so attaching a simple intercom to it should not need major rewiring, just the jacks and an interconnect, whereas replacing it with a PMA would require me to also redo all the avionics connections; I'll take another look, and see how the prices on the engine monitor install work out, but will likely leave this for when I redo the avionics;

 - does removing the existing gauges save me anything except weight?  if not, I'll probably leave them in case the new sensors develop infant mortality and remove them when doing a true cleanup of the whole panel;

 - I have no preferences nor allegiance to brands, I just want the stuff to work well and play nice with each other;  I have a slight mental preference to support the smaller guy if all other things are more or less equal.

It won't be an "all in" new panel.  In the future, yes, a IFD440 is an option, but the G5's are not, they won't drive the KFC200, so that will have to wait till something breaks and forces my hand or new things / interconnects appear; perhaps an Aera 660 or an ipad running the Avidyne app will eventually replace the KNS80, but then I need a standalone DME (we can't officially substitute GPS for it here).  But all this is not going to happen now.

[carusoam]

There are a few CGRs being put in Mooneys around here...

The challenge seems to be....

• space
• cost
• primary instruments 
• what gets displayed on the front page, what is hiding in the back pages...

Make sure the list of primary instruments is covered before planning the removal of any of the old stuff...

PP thoughts only, I still have the JPI 700 series...

Best regards,

-a-

[tmo]

I know there are CGR users out there, hence my surprise.  With the dual CGR30's (P and C) I believe I can replace everything primary, as I can with the EDM900, but will do the math for sure.  The worksheet that needs to be filled out and sent in will keep me (and my A&P) honest.

I forgot - yes on the CIES fuel senders, thanks for that suggestion; I was somewhat on a fence on those but yes, it simply makes sense to do it right from the start.

[gsxrpilot]

I was in your position when I first bought my M20K. I went with an EDM-900 in landscape mode on the pilot side for all the usual reasons. And this was my first upgrade. And over the last 500 hours of flight time, I'm sure it's paid for its self in maintenance and fuel savings.

1. Price - it was cheaper to buy and to install than the CGR P and C combo. 
2. As a Primary replacement it's an upgrade that I won't have to repeat and allowed me to remove, once and for all, the factory gauges.
3. Paired with CiES digital senders, I could also remove the Hoskins totalizer that just wasn't fine grained enough for accurate LOP operations.
   1. K's are impossible to fill accurately and therefore having accurate fuel gauges is critical.
   2. K tanks are impossible to stick because of the huge flappers in the tank necks. Again, good gauges are priceless.
4. Data logging is simple and easy to upload to SavvyAnalysis for a full record of all flights.

Regarding panel arrangement:  I'd remove the ADF and the factory gauge strip. I'd move the autopilot enunciator panel to the location vacated by the gauge strip. I'd relocate the CDI head up to just below the gear switch and then mount the EDM 900 in landscape in the space vacated by the ADF and CDI.

Just my $0.02

[Gagarin]

I went with  EI UBG-16 on the upper right corner for EGT CHT Fuel Flow, voltmeter and OAT works very well. No need to rearrange the panel. It has other functions. 

Edited November 9, 2019 by Gagarin

[LANCECASPER]

23 hours ago, tmo said:

 - I have all four seats wired into the KMA24, so attaching a simple intercom to it should not need major rewiring, just the jacks and an interconnect, whereas replacing it with a PMA would require me to also redo all the avionics connections; I'll take another look, and see how the prices on the engine monitor install work out, but will likely leave this for when I redo the avionics;

 

Going from a KMA24 to a PS Engineering PMA7000BT is pretty straightforward. The bottom connector that is on the KMA24 plugs right into the PMA7000BT. The intercom wires go into the top connector, but since you need to install an intercom anyway this would be a good modern, bluetooth solution with much less labor involved. I upgraded a KMA24 to a PMA7000BT in my M20M.

http://ps-engineering.com/pma7000bt.shtml

[Oldguy]

You might look at this since the GPSS he is selling was connected to his KFC 200.

@LANCECASPER has a very good point about the PS audio panel. If by wiring in the intercom portion of it you can achieve what you want AND end up with a more current panel, it sounds like a win all over.

@gsxrpilot has a good idea about the panel rearrangement for the EDM 900, and his reasons for the CiES fuel senders are spot on. He and I prefer the engine monitor to be close to line of sight as once I am up in the air, I am more or less monitoring engine rather than actively flying the plane (thanks to a solid A/P).

If you could do the PMA7000BT, the EDM 900, and the GPSS, you could end up with nearly everything on your list for a reasonable price and less pain than many of us have endured. Best of luck!

[tmo]

Thank you and I want the FlightStream too...  Trying to get a straight word from my A&P / avionics shop, those with FAA papers are rare as hen's teeth over here, so it's taking time...

I'm starting to feel like I should take the panel apart myself and see what is there and what is not...  Cabling, etc.  I need a hangar elf or three...

[gsxrpilot]

Note that the installation of the EDM-900 is not technically "avionics". At least over here, any A&P can install the engine monitor. And their hourly rate is typically quite a bit less than an Avionics Tech's rate.

[tmo]

Thank you for pointing that out, @gsxrpilot - my plane is N-reg, so FAA rules apply; an IA is still needed to sign the install off, and that is the organizational challenge - I have a friendly A&P but without an IA.  I'm still hoping to combine the work with the annual in December, but am more and more concerned with scheduling with my, also friendly but extremely busy A&P/IA.

Side question - how long can a TSIO-360 sit idle before bad things start to happen?  Assuming fresh oil with Camguard.  This would be the case where I don't get any extra things done at annual and start doing them piecemeal over the winter, to have an IA sign them off in the spring.

Is the audio panel avionics, or also in an A&P/IA's purview to sign off?  How about GPSS and FlightStream?

Edited November 12, 2019 by tmo
added q about audio panel sign-off

[carusoam]

tmo,

Do a search on engine dehydrators...

Winter makes a good atmosphere for natural dehydration...

Most people have a preference for flying the plane every week or two...

going out a month without flying starts getting into unknown territory.

PP thoughts only, not a metallurgist...

Best regards,

-a-

[tmo]

Yes, I've read about them dehydrators, but was hoping to go down the "fly frequently" path.  The weather is proving me wrong so far, and that's even before I get into any possible "owner induced downtime".  I also thought they (the dehydrators) were more of a Lycoming thing, with the camshaft up high, but I guess the Continental one isn't sitting in oil either.  Luckily the dehydrator DIY projects I've seen around look relatively simple.

And old school light bulbs aka infrared emitters in a wire frame (think "old workshop") to heat up the cabin just oh so slightly above ambient.  And kitty litter.

I promise to go fly this weekend!

[carusoam]

Engines have a tendency to not allow air to flow through them...

This allows moisture to stay inside...

use caution with heating parts of the engine... there may be cool spots too.  Moisture will evaporate from one area and rain on the other...

So there is a special oil for long term storage...

And dehydrator devices that mount in the spark plug holes... for the cylinder interiors, top end...

More PP thoughts to consider...

-a-

[tmo]

The lamp would be for inside the cabin, it gets lonely, cold and humid in there over the winter too.

The dehydrators I've considered slowly pump ambient air (think fish tank air pump) through a dehumidifying compound (think glorified kitty litter) and into the oil filler neck; the air then escapes whichever way it chooses, but the assumption is that eventually all the air in the engine is replaced by the less humid positive pressure air from the pump.  A slight decrease in RH of the air should be sufficient.

Prepping an engine for long term storage is a subject I sincerely hope not to have to explore in any practical way, at least not on my plane...

But this has become somewhat of a thread drift for which I thank you all, good stuff.

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, tmo said:

Thank you for pointing that out, @gsxrpilot - my plane is N-reg, so FAA rules apply; an IA is still needed to sign the install off, and that is the organizational challenge - I have a friendly A&P but without an IA.  I'm still hoping to combine the work with the annual in December, but am more and more concerned with scheduling with my, also friendly but extremely busy A&P/IA.

Side question - how long can a TSIO-360 sit idle before bad things start to happen?  Assuming fresh oil with Camguard.  This would be the case where I don't get any extra things done at annual and start doing them piecemeal over the winter, to have an IA sign them off in the spring.

Is the audio panel avionics, or also in an A&P/IA's purview to sign off?  How about GPSS and FlightStream?

An IA is required to sign off the form 337 for return to service for anything that is a major repair or alteration.    There is not tight agreement on what that means, and it has even been officially opined by FAA legal that STCs that aren't major alterations don't require a 337.   Avionics changes generally don't fall under the description of major alterations or repairs in FAR 43 App A, and fit the TSO-for-TSO description of allowed changes, but most folks still use a 337 for them.  Opinions vary.

All that being said, the only thing the IA is really needed for is to sign off the 337 authorizing return to service.   An A&P can do the work sign it off for conformity and an IA sign if off for return to service, and there are even separate places on the form for the A&P and the IA to sign it.  So your A&P with available time can do the work and sign it, and the IA with less time can sign off the return to service.    This might be tricky if they don't like each other or something, but it's a possible strategy. 

[tmo]

Thanks to all, again, for all the input.  The A&P has spoken and he said JPI, so that's that.  Guess I need a second plane to put an EI in it ;-)  I always wanted a taildragger...

I now have a question for the 6 cylinder turbocharged crowd - @gsxrpilot et consortes - I know, landscape, but exactly why?  Looking at the pretty pictures on the interwebs, eg. this picture from JPI the main difference I see is that only one of CHT/EGT will be displayed, all else being seemingly equal.  Do I really care that much about EGT values in real time, if I have TIT and it's all getting recorded for upload to Savvy anyway?  Won't the device pop an alert if there is something I do need to look at?  OK, the RPM/MP gauges are slightly different, but is it really significant?  It seems easier to fit it in portrait mode, and I'd need to remove one less instrument, hence my question.

A side question, if I may, is about EDM900 vs EDM930 - are they really "functionally equivalent" and the only difference is a bigger screen, or is the 930 a significantly better unit?  I guess I should leave it at "plenty good enough" (900) but hey, Christmas is coming...  JPI has a presentation about the differences which tries to suggest the 930 is much better, but I don't really know if it is better for me to buy it for my plane, or for JPI to sell it to me at a better margin...  The 900 seems to display and log everything I need, so that's the "good enough" angle.

Last set of questions for now are about IAT.  I am planning to add an intercooler at some point in time, hopefully soon, and thought about getting IAT on the JPI to future-proof it.  Q1: am I making sense?  Q2,3: how is IAT displayed and does the JPI also show the temp delta, like the unit that comes with the intercooler; Q4: does the JPI replace the IAT indicator provided with the intercooler, or will I need to install the second unit as well?

[DanM20C]

1 hour ago, tmo said:

I know, landscape, but exactly why

I prefer landscape for the 6 cylinders, but that is the only way I have used it.  I feel it's just easier to see and interpret everything.  I never noticed that portrait can't display the CHT and EGT at the same time.

1 hour ago, tmo said:

Last set of questions for now are about IAT.  I am planning to add an intercooler at some point in time, hopefully soon, and thought about getting IAT on the JPI to future-proof it.  Q1: am I making sense?  Q2,3: how is IAT displayed and does the JPI also show the temp delta, like the unit that comes with the intercooler; Q4: does the JPI replace the IAT indicator provided with the intercooler, or will I need to install the second unit as well?

Q1: This makes sense to me.  Q2,3: The JPI will display the CDT over on the primary instrument area. The IAT is only displayed in the message area.  It will display differential between the two there also. Q4:  I'm not sure.  I ended up keeping the TurboPlus gauge and I"m glad I did.  I like having it displayed all the time at a quick glance.  @Jeff Shapiro (AKA. Mr Turboplus) should have the answer.

Cheers,

Dan

[LANCECASPER]

5 hours ago, tmo said:

A side question, if I may, is about EDM900 vs EDM930 - are they really "functionally equivalent" and the only difference is a bigger screen, or is the 930 a significantly better unit?  I guess I should leave it at "plenty good enough" (900) but hey, Christmas is coming...  JPI has a presentation about the differences which tries to suggest the 930 is much better, but I don't really know if it is better for me to buy it for my plane, or for JPI to sell it to me at a better margin...  The 900 seems to display and log everything I need, so that's the "good enough" angle.

If you need help justifying it and you have the panel space, go for it.  I used to own an Ovation that had a 930 and it was very nice.

The resolution seemed better than the 900 and I'm glad the previous owner spent the difference. I think the equipment is only $1200-$1300 more and the labor is going to be the same. (The shop I plan on using when I put the 930 in my M20M likes installing the 930 better than the 900 since there is more room behind it. They said it's a cleaner install.)