Mooney M20J Crash NJ

[gsengle]

  On 5/30/2019 at 2:35 AM, carusoam said:

Prayers for the lost air/seaman...
The flightaware track indicates the flight being above 400’.  But the track ends long before the flight does...
There is a slider for speed and altitude on the graph and the yellow ground track on the map changes with respect to the data.
FlightAware is not any better than most eyewitnesses...  the last data points climb gently above 1k’
The flight continued on another 30 or so miles from AC to WWD before crashing...
A sad day in NJ aviation...
Best regards,
-a-

The video shows well below 500 feet. FlightAware altitudes aren’t super accurate. They are gps altitudes.


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[jaylw314]

  On 5/30/2019 at 1:38 PM, gsengle said:

The video shows well below 500 feet. FlightAware altitudes aren’t super accurate. They are gps altitudes.

 

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AFAIK, FlightAware also uses Mode C altitudes (it would display altitudes on my flights before I had a 1090ES ADS-B out transponder).  

[PTK]

RIP. Prayers for the ones left behind. Very sad and very bad for GA. So unnecessary and so very preventable. I have flown low over the Jersey beach multiple times. Never below 500 feet. What this guy was thinking skimming the water like that I don’t know. Not to mention of course what this does for our insurance premiums. 

Edited May 30, 2019 by PTK

[gsengle]

  On 5/30/2019 at 3:34 PM, jaylw314 said:

AFAIK, FlightAware also uses Mode C altitudes (it would display altitudes on my flights before I had a 1090ES ADS-B out transponder).  

It’s a mix


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[gsengle]

  On 5/30/2019 at 3:34 PM, jaylw314 said:

AFAIK, FlightAware also uses Mode C altitudes (it would display altitudes on my flights before I had a 1090ES ADS-B out transponder).  

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[drapo]

  On 5/30/2019 at 4:45 PM, gsengle said:

 

It’s a mix


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And I would add that it is an altitude based on a standard altimeter (29.92), so you would need to correct for the local altimeter.

[jaylw314]

  On 5/30/2019 at 7:57 PM, drapo said:

And I would add that it is an altitude based on a standard altimeter (29.92), so you would need to correct for the local altimeter.

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That's what we were debating--if it was a GPS altitude, it would be a true altitude, but if it was a Mode C altitude, it would require correction

Edit:  Now that you mention that, though, I have to admit I am unsure if ADS-B Out transmits the GPS altitude or not.  Anybody know?

Edited May 30, 2019 by jaylw314

[gsengle]

  On 5/30/2019 at 7:59 PM, jaylw314 said:

That's what we were debating--if it was a GPS altitude, it would be a true altitude, but if it was a Mode C altitude, it would require correction

Though gps altitude itself often isn’t that accurate...


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[jaylw314]

  On 5/30/2019 at 8:00 PM, gsengle said:

 

Though gps altitude itself often isn’t that accurate...


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I suspect it is very accurate, since the WAAS altitude is used for vertical guidance on approaches?  Isn't it 25 feet/95% of the time?

[drapo]

Here is a quote from FlightAware.com about what altitudes is listed on their site:

«Altitude is another confusing piece of data. While at first glance it may seem straight-forward, there are actually several different ways altitude can be reported. Most people instinctively think of altitude as "height above ground level" however this is not what is transmitted in Mode S/ADS-B data. The most common altitude type is "uncorrected pressure altitude" from the aircraft's altimeter. You may see strange things such as negative values or lower values than you would expect because this data is not corrected for local atmospheric pressure. An airplane landing in a mountainous region may be on the ground at an altitude of several thousand feet! ADS-B is standardizing around "altitude above ellipsoid" based on GPS satellite calculations (and again, this is not altitude above ground level). Unfortunately, when viewing Mode S/ADS-B data it is not necessarily obvious what type of altitude you are seeing. You may also see altitudes based on height above mean sea level from older ADS-B equipment. Always take the altitude value with a grain of salt!»

[jaylw314]

  On 5/30/2019 at 8:09 PM, drapo said:

Here is a quote from FlightAware.com about what altitudes is listed on their site:

«Altitude is another confusing piece of data. While at first glance it may seem straight-forward, there are actually several different ways altitude can be reported. Most people instinctively think of altitude as "height above ground level" however this is not what is transmitted in Mode S/ADS-B data. The most common altitude type is "uncorrected pressure altitude" from the aircraft's altimeter. You may see strange things such as negative values or lower values than you would expect because this data is not corrected for local atmospheric pressure. An airplane landing in a mountainous region may be on the ground at an altitude of several thousand feet! ADS-B is standardizing around "altitude above ellipsoid" based on GPS satellite calculations (and again, this is not altitude above ground level). Unfortunately, when viewing Mode S/ADS-B data it is not necessarily obvious what type of altitude you are seeing. You may also see altitudes based on height above mean sea level from older ADS-B equipment. Always take the altitude value with a grain of salt!»

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Ok, I'm apparently wrong in every possible way! 

[gsengle]

  On 5/30/2019 at 8:17 PM, jaylw314 said:

Ok, I'm apparently wrong in every possible way! 

Yeah an approach is surveyed to know what gps altitudes work...


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[carusoam]

Keep in mind, the FA data thinks the plane landed tens of miles before it actually stopped flying.

The video and the eyewitness accounts are after (further south) of where the FA data ends...

Best regards,

-a-

[gsengle]

  On 5/30/2019 at 8:34 PM, carusoam said:

Keep in mind, the FA data thinks the plane landed tens of miles before it actually stopped flying.
The video and the eyewitness accounts are after (further south)of where the FA data ends...
Best regards,
-a-

“Under the Radar”


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[Shadrach]

  On 5/30/2019 at 1:38 PM, gsengle said:

 

The video shows well below 500 feet. FlightAware altitudes aren’t super accurate. They are gps altitudes.


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Looking at the video it looks like you have an extra 0 there...

[gsengle]

  On 5/30/2019 at 9:12 PM, Shadrach said:

Looking at the video it looks like you have an extra 0 there...

Sadly so.

-Greg


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[mike_elliott]

I have emailed Shane asking for surviving widow's contact info, and expressed condolences. Hopefully he will respond with the info so we can reach out to the surviving spouse if there is one.

 

[201er]

  On 5/30/2019 at 11:10 PM, mike_elliott said:

I have emailed Shane asking for surviving widow's contact info, and expressed condolences. Hopefully he will respond with the info so we can reach out to the surviving spouse if there is one.

 

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Thank you Mike Elliott and the Mooney Summit for what you do. It's sad and we all wish you wouldn't have to do it at all. But if it has to be done, we're glad there's people like you!

[mike_elliott]

  On 5/31/2019 at 2:02 AM, 201er said:

Thank you Mike Elliott and the Mooney Summit for what you do. It's sad and we all wish you wouldn't have to do it at all. But if it has to be done, we're glad there's people like you!

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Thanks Mike, this is #3 since the last Summit. So sad....

[steingar]

This is aviation.  Folks die.  It is a pity that in this case it appears to be caused by especially foolish misadventure, if those videos are to be believed.

[aviatoreb]

  On 5/31/2019 at 8:10 PM, steingar said:

This is aviation.  Folks die.  It is a pity that in this case it appears to be caused by especially foolish misadventure, if those videos are to be believed.

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I like to think it is not that common.  I know the actual statistics.  But we see a lot of incidents over a year when we are on a national forum like this watching all of the tragedies that rise up across the nation.  In some ways, it was more blissful ignorance before the internet.  Very sad in any case.

[Niko182]

I tell non pilots that as cool as a plane is, its not a toy. the  moment you treat it that way, is the moment it'll bite back and kill you.
unless there was a valid reason to be flying at 45ft MSL, this guy treated his plane as a toy. Even in a cub, I don't think I'd fly below 300
to 400ft AGL.

anyhow condolences to the family and RIP.

[flight2000]

Pilot officially identified.

https://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2019/05/31/officials-identify-pilot-lawrence-klimek-cape-may-plane-crash/

Brian

[GDGR]

Just searched “Larry Klimek” on FB. 

Newer account, but aside from one skydiving post, every other pic is M20J related. 

[PTK]

  On 5/31/2019 at 10:41 PM, GLJA said:

Just hope it doesn't affect the remainder of us all in a negative fashion. 

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It sure does. We’re viewed with skepticism, much like gun owners, thanks to the actions of a few individuals. The best thing here is that this dumbass was alone and didn't also kill an innocent and trusting pax. Otherwise I view this as Darwin at work. Much like gang violence and shootings.