Trade offs between an F and J model

[201er]

1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

Baggage area in my E is 19-1/2" at the floor, front to back.

FWIW, if anyone want to compare I measured 28" from the front end of the seat track to the face of the rear seat (which is the spar faced with leather panel). I suspect that mid bodies will be about 33".

Without the extra 5” of baggage space, how would Marauder be able to fit his girlfriend’s baggage?? Doubt your short body has the space Mr Belville...

[Danb]

Once the girls get slid in there zero room for baggage 

[rbridges]

3 hours ago, 201er said:

Without the extra 5” of baggage space, how would Marauder be able to fit his girlfriend’s baggage?? Doubt your short body has the space Mr Belville...

You can shove a lot of biscuits and gravy into a 19" space.

[M20F-1968]

On 4/11/2019 at 5:29 AM, Yetti said:

surprised no one has mentioned it this far in, but there is a seat rail mod to drill more holes in the seat rail at the 1.5 inch spacing.   I think it is in the downloads section.  and I am 6' 9"  not 6'7" as previously reported.

Does anyone have that modification documentation or how to obtain the documentation.  I am working on a seat rail stop idea where a stop is slid onto the inboard pilot's seat rail 

positioned just behind the rear of the pilot's seat, and locks into the seat rail with a spring loaded pin into one newly drilled hole in the seat rail.  

It would be good to have some documentation showing that drilling such a hole is acceptable.

John Breda

[Marauder]

Without the extra 5” of baggage space, how would Marauder be able to fit his girlfriend’s baggage?? Doubt your short body has the space Mr Belville...

Once the girls get slid in there zero room for baggage 

You can shove a lot of biscuits and gravy into a 19" space.

You guys are just jealous.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[N9201A]

Hah!  Thanks, I thought I was the only who felt that way! 

Try formation...you know pretty quickly how your bird matches another. I’ve flown my J with a sneaky fast modified C and a modified F that was as fast as an unmodified early J. It’s easy to see the speed difference between early and late Js, between like year Js and Ks, and see that an E will out-accelerate both initially.

[Yetti]

2 hours ago, M20F-1968 said:

Does anyone have that modification documentation or how to obtain the documentation.  I am working on a seat rail stop idea where a stop is slid onto the inboard pilot's seat rail 

positioned just behind the rear of the pilot's seat, and locks into the seat rail with a spring loaded pin into one newly drilled hole in the seat rail.  

It would be good to have some documentation showing that drilling such a hole is acceptable.

John Breda

Have to look but I believe so.   It's .250 hole on 1.5 centers if I recall.

[DonMuncy]

8 hours ago, M20F-1968 said:

Does anyone have that modification documentation or how to obtain the documentation.  I am working on a seat rail stop idea where a stop is slid onto the inboard pilot's seat rail 

positioned just behind the rear of the pilot's seat, and locks into the seat rail with a spring loaded pin into one newly drilled hole in the seat rail.  

It would be good to have some documentation showing that drilling such a hole is acceptable.

John Breda

John,

I started with exactly the same idea. I discovered that the holes in the rails do not extend behind the seat. I then devised the one shown in the pics. Not as elegant as our initial idea, but seems to work well. 

Oops, I just saw where you intend to drill a new hole.

[bonal]

On April 7, 2019 at 11:44 AM, christothes said:

I'm beginning the search for a Mooney and I thought I had narrowed the choices down to J model. However, now I'm questioning if it's really worth the premium over a well equipped late model F. Assuming a similarly equipped F with a few speed mods, can you guys help me with some pros and cons? After a fair amount of research,  here are a few to start with.

Pros of a J model over an F

• generally at least 10 years newer airframe
• Speed mods already built in
• Generally better cockpit configuration depending on year
• Higher VLE ('78+)
• Better fuel switch (not sure what year the 'off in the middle' ended)
• A few extra knots depending on the speed mods on an F

Cons of a J model

• Good examples priced at least 20-30k more than similarly equipped F

Just in case we forgot what the original question was. Seems to have drifted a bit into a discussion about short vs mid bodies. In terms of space there is zero, zip nada between the F and J.  As for the original post I think you have asked and answered your own question. pick the best F or J you can afford.  Best of luck and enjoy the hunt. 

[Yetti]

How much room between seats in an F when large furry mythical creatures fly.   

[Igor_U]

Is this seat at the pin hole on the rail preventing it to slide all the way back?

I use that location in cruse (normally my seat is on last stop for take-off and landing) but somehow it seems your seat back is closer to the back seat then in my '67F.

is your seat rail modified? 

[Marauder]

21 minutes ago, Igor_U said:

Is this seat at the pin hole on the rail preventing it to slide all the way back?

I use that location in cruse (normally my seat is on last stop for take-off and landing) but somehow it seems your seat back is closer to the back seat then in my '67F.

is your seat rail modified? 

Why do I always think of this movie when Yetti tells us about his seating experiences in a Mooney.

 

[Yetti]

2 hours ago, Igor_U said:

Is this seat at the pin hole on the rail preventing it to slide all the way back?

I use that location in cruse (normally my seat is on last stop for take-off and landing) but somehow it seems your seat back is closer to the back seat then in my '67F.

is your seat rail modified? 

The seat is properly locked into hole in the rail per the POH.    I could actually be comfortable in the 1.5" hole up from there, but it tends to stay in the last hole.

[mooniac15u]

1 hour ago, Yetti said:

The seat is properly locked into hole in the rail per the POH. 

That's a carefully worded statement. 

Was that hole present when the plane left the factory?

[Yetti]

5 minutes ago, mooniac15u said:

That's a carefully worded statement. 

Was that hole present when the plane left the factory?

I was 11 years old when the plane left the factory.  I was not there.   There is 40 years of maintenance history between me and the factory.  There is data that exists for adding more holes to the rail

Edited April 18, 2019 by Yetti

[mooniac15u]

1 minute ago, Yetti said:

I was 11 years old when the plane left the factory.  I was not there.   There is 40 years of maintenance history between me and the factory.

Another carefully worded statement.

The photo already reveals a non-standard seat position. Did you file a 337 for the mod?

[Yetti]

24 minutes ago, mooniac15u said:

Another carefully worded statement.

The photo already reveals a non-standard seat position. Did you file a 337 for the mod?

was a spar cut or modified?

[mooniac15u]

20 minutes ago, Yetti said:

was a spar cut or modified?

IIf you aren't concerned that this might be viewed as a major mod by the FAA then why the reluctance to discuss it publicly?

Changing a plane so that it no longer conforms to the TCDS seems like a good time to file a 337.

[Yetti]

You are the one who has a bur under your saddle blanket.  As long as the A&P signing believe it to be a minor mod and they have acceptable data then I am good.   Are you a DER?

 

 

[mooniac15u]

Every one of those links includes a discussion of the need for a DER and a 337 to complete that mod.  Sounds like a major modification to me. 

[Marauder]

You are the one who has a bur under your saddle blanket.  As long as the A&P signing believe it to be a minor mod and they have acceptable data then I am good.   Are you a DER?

[/url]  

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

I look at it as what’s the worst that could happen if you popped out of those holes? You’re already flying from the back seat.

[Hank]

3 minutes ago, mooniac15u said:

Every one of those links includes a discussion of the need for a DER and a 337 to complete that mod.  Sounds like a major modification to me. 

I have no dog in this race, other than general dislike for people who say that everything not cover3d under PMS, STC, etc., is of coirse a major modification requiring DAR / DER input, 337s, etc. But I did a 1-second google search, the first hit was an AOPA article [https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2014/october/22/aircraft-maintenance-major-vs-minor-alterations-part-2] from which I extractex the following:

It is the responsibility of the installer to determine whether an alteration is minor or major based on the federal aviation regulations. This makes choosing a good shop to do the alteration very important. There are a lot of excellent mechanics out there who understand the regulations, can help you navigate the process, and can get your alteration done in a safe and legal manner. Unfortunately, there are also quite a few shops out there who follow the “No STC = No Alteration” philosophy. This approach has no basis in the regulations, so steer clear of anyone not willing to evaluate your proposed alteration on its own merits. 

The primary regulatory guidance for determining a major vs. a minor alteration can be found in 14 CFR 21.93  and 14 CFR Part 1.1.

According to 14 CFR 21.93, “A ‘minor change’ is one that has no appreciable effect on the weight, balance, structural strength, reliability, operational characteristics, or other characteristics affecting the airworthiness of the product. All other changes are ‘major changes’ (except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section).”

Definitions provided in 14 CFR Part 1.1 state, “Major alteration means an alteration not listed in the aircraft, aircraft engine, or propeller specifications—

(1) That might appreciably affect weight, balance, structural strength, performance, powerplant operation, flight characteristics, or other qualities affecting airworthiness; or

(2) That is not done according to accepted practices or cannot be done by elementary operations.”

And “minor alteration means an alteration other than a major alteration

[Yetti]

3 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

I look at it as what’s the worst that could happen if you popped out of those holes? You’re already flying from the back seat.

If I was not already in the back seat, I would probably design a lever with a pin that goes into the next open pin hole.   Would pivot off the roller bolt.   Just use a tad longer bolt.

[Yetti]

2 minutes ago, Hank said:

I have no dog in this race, other than general dislike for people who say that everything not cover3d under PMS, STC, etc., is of coirse a major modification requiring DAR / DER input, 337s, etc. But I did a 1-second google search, the first hit was an AOPA article [https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2014/october/22/aircraft-maintenance-major-vs-minor-alterations-part-2] from which I extractex the following:

 

given that I found an alternator bracket that was installed upside down by the last certified mechanic which technically made the plane unairworthy I am going to trust my judgement before some random person on the internet.

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, mooniac15u said:

Every one of those links includes a discussion of the need for a DER and a 337 to complete that mod.  Sounds like a major modification to me. 

When you go to buy Yetti’s airplane, you can make it an issue.  Until then his IA seems content.

Clarence