A good day ends badly in El Paso

[Dreamlifter]

Does this become an insurance claim?

Great job on getting back on the ground and communicating with ATC. That really helps everyone for a safe return! We never stop learning.

Steve

[DonMuncy]

Good decision making Jim. Sorry for your troubles. The good part is that there is little labor in removing and replacing a prop. The time it takes to get a prop repaired or a new one, is a different story. Let me know if I can help.

[Bob_Belville]

Jim, do you know which prop shop Joey Cole used/uses? Perhaps H&H Triad. Yeah, I would think a different shop would be in order this time. We’ll be interested in any comments from Cody Stallings.

 

[EricJ]

Holy crap.   Good job, glad you're okay, glad the airplane is largely okay and the prognosis is workable.    That could have been a lot worse.  Glad it wasn't. 

Also kudos to the group for the quick info and diagnosis.

Interested to see how it plays out from here.

 

[carusoam]

The centrifugal force on that small part sure has left a signature...

the difference in hardness of the two materials, allowed the softer aluminum blade to get gouged... by the harder snap ring...

It will be interesting to determine what allowed or forced the snap ring to depart...

See if we can learn something about snap rings, and any signs of their impending departure...

 

JC, Thanks for the continued sharing all the details and pics...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

[rbridges]

4 hours ago, jcovington said:

First, let me say you guys blow me away. I don't know where else I could get such expert help and on a holiday weekend. I really appreciate it. 

The prop is original to the plane so about 2200 hours total service. About two years ago Joey noticed some leaking grease during an oil change. At annual in February 2017 the prop was removed and sent for a reseal. During annual in February 2018 the prop was again leaking so once again it was removed and the seals redone. That makes it less than a year since the last visit to the prop shop with the plane always hangered. It seems unlikely that corrosion was a factor but still something to check. 

The damage to the prop is only one blade. The other blade shows some wear but we fly the plane about two hundred hours in a year through lots of weather. The wear isn't more than I would expect. The snap ring coming loose makes perfect sense and I believe would account for the damage to the blade. 

After breakfast this morning I will go back to the airport and remove the spinner. More pictures and information to follow. 

Jim

Was it sent to Gainesville?  Joey sent mine there when grease was seen on one of the blades. 

And kudos to a good decision to land and inspect your plane!

[Seth]

Glad you are all safe.  Though fixing the current prop may be the least expensive option, thus may be a great time to put the money toward the new prop as your spouse suggested.  Lots of options.  Take your time and evaluate all.

For some items I overhaul/fix.  Other items I put the repair money toward an upgrade.  There have been many developments in props since many of our aircraft rolled off the production line.

Keep us up to date on your options!!

 

-Seth

[nfonville]

El Paso Aero is good shop that my dad and I used many times in the past living in EP.

[Yetti]

I would say that prop/hub combo does not want to be on the plane.  You probably need a blade, so around $9000 will get you a new fancy prop.  The tricky part is seeing if one is built and available.  Then you won't have to worry about that part of plane

[LANCECASPER]

If it's just the snap ring that was bad could the blade(s) be dressed and saved? I don't want to minimize it, but I hate throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[jcovington]

11 hours ago, Dreamlifter said:

Does this become an insurance claim?

I don't think the insurance company will provide any coverage for the event. It was a maintenance failure rather than an accident. I plan to check the policy to be sure but I expect to have to pay the full cost of the repair. 

Jkm

[jcovington]

10 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

do you know which prop shop Joey Cole used/uses

I spoke with Joey this afternoon. He has been very helpful and has followed up on each question I have asked. He told me today that Sensenich Propeller is the shop that has been servicing my prop. He said that they are a good shop and stand behind their work. He felt that letting them do the work to repair the damaged prop might result in some credit for the previous repairs. He also said that it is likely that the hub and one blade is ruined on my existing prop. 

My plan is to talk to El Paso Aero to repair the prop. I will probably go with whichever shop they deal with.

We have a trip to Nassau planned for January 10th. Annual is planned for February and a family ski trip for March. If I can find a replacement prop ready to be installed that is the route I will take. With the amount of time we use the plane it will will cost us more in down time than the new prop will cost. 

Jim

[jcovington]

8 hours ago, nfonville said:

El Paso Aero

Thanks for that recommendation. Atlantic had given me their contact information when I found the damaged prop.  I plan to call them tomorrow to get the repair started. Always good to hear the shop has a good recommendation. 

Jim

[jcovington]

6 hours ago, Yetti said:

I would say that prop/hub combo does not want to be on the plane.  You probably need a blade, so around $9000 will get you a new fancy prop.  The tricky part is seeing if one is built and available.  Then you won't have to worry about that part of plane

I tend to agree with you. My wife definitely does. If the hub is bad as Joey thinks and the scratched blade can't be cleaned up as I think. That puts me with 2 out of 3 bad parts. In my mine that is pretty well totaled and replacement is the best option. I'll wait to see what the prop shop shop says but I am resigned to buying a new prop.

Jim

[jcovington]

5 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

If it's just the snap ring that was bad could the blade(s) be dressed and saved? I don't want to minimize it, but I hate throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I am not expert but I think that the snap ring going may have damaged the hub matting surface. The scratches in the prop may be able to be dressed. What doesn't show in the pictures is a divot about two thirds of the way up the blade. I think that divot is too deep to be dressed especially with the scratches on the opposite side. 

I hate throwing away good components too but that prop is not among my favorite things right now . I do plan to listen to the prop shop recommendations before I decide what to do. I suspect I will choose the fastest option not necessarily the cheapest. 

Jim

[Niko182]

50 minutes ago, jcovington said:

I am not expert but I think that the snap ring going may have damaged the hub matting surface. The scratches in the prop may be able to be dressed. What doesn't show in the pictures is a divot about two thirds of the way up the blade. I think that divot is too deep to be dressed especially with the scratches on the opposite side. 

I hate throwing away good components too but that prop is not among my favorite things right now . I do plan to listen to the prop shop recommendations before I decide what to do. I suspect I will choose the fastest option not necessarily the cheapest. 

Jim

I believe the top props from hartzell are the fastest blades available. You have the option between 2 and 3 blades. Ive always been a fan of 3 blades. Yeah you lose a couple knots in cruise, but its made up in climb. Also includes a better takeoff performance and shorter landing distance. You do lose a couple pounds however of useful load.

[carusoam]

Love for the old prop fades quickly...

When my prop got damaged...

The engine replacement took two weeks...

The new TopProp took about six weeks...

You might want to start calling the suppliers to see who has what in stock, and what the lead times are...

There are a few happy customers for Hartzell TopProp with the thin blade option... and MT composite blades...

Hartzell has some composite blades. Don’t know anyone that has them though...

Best regards,

-a-

[Yetti]

@Cody Stallings is kind of pretty close to El Paso. He's in Arkansas. Good news is SWA flys to El Paso.  El Paso is closer to California than it is to Houston. This is the second J that had a similar snap ring failure.   There was that one in Houston that had an issue at start up.

[Culver LFA]

9 hours ago, jcovington said:

He told me today that Sensenich Propeller is the shop that has been servicing my prop.

I was hoping you weren't going to say that...

[EricJ]

12 hours ago, jcovington said:

I hate throwing away good components too but that prop is not among my favorite things right now .

If it were me that blade would become a decoration in the hangar, garage, mancave, or somewhere.    If the whole prop fits somewhere, even better. 

[jaylw314]

13 hours ago, jcovington said:

I spoke with Joey this afternoon. He has been very helpful and has followed up on each question I have asked. He told me today that Sensenich Propeller is the shop that has been servicing my prop. He said that they are a good shop and stand behind their work. He felt that letting them do the work to repair the damaged prop might result in some credit for the previous repairs. He also said that it is likely that the hub and one blade is ruined on my existing prop. 

My plan is to talk to El Paso Aero to repair the prop. I will probably go with whichever shop they deal with.

We have a trip to Nassau planned for January 10th. Annual is planned for February and a family ski trip for March. If I can find a replacement prop ready to be installed that is the route I will take. With the amount of time we use the plane it will will cost us more in down time than the new prop will cost. 

Jim

Last year when I had to get new prop blades for a Macauley prop, Hartzell had a lead time of 4 weeks for a new 2-blade prop and hub, whereas Macauley was about 6 weeks for a prop (and about $1000 more), and they could give no ETA for making new blades

I would expect the cost of a new hub and one blade to be about $5-7k for the parts along with several weeks of searching for individual parts, whereas a new Hartzell 2-blade prop cost me about $9400 total, to put it in perspective.  You might also get some credit for the good blade.

In fact, Hartzell had the prop sent out in 3 weeks, BUT...I ended up down for 4 months because of a Fedex forklift accident 

Edit: I went back and corrected some of the numbers after looking at my shop's estimates.  I'm guessing on the $5-7k for the hub and one prop.

[donkaye]

17 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Last year when I had to get new prop blades for a Macauley prop, Hartzell had a lead time of 4 weeks for a new 2-blade prop and hub, whereas Macauley was about 6 weeks for a prop (and about $1000 more), and they could give no ETA for making new blades

I would expect the cost of a new hub and one blade to be about $5-7k for the parts along with several weeks of searching for individual parts, whereas a new Hartzell 2-blade prop cost me about $9400 total, to put it in perspective.  You might also get some credit for the good blade.

In fact, Hartzell had the prop sent out in 3 weeks, BUT...I ended up down for 4 months because of a Fedex forklift accident 

Edit: I went back and corrected some of the numbers after looking at my shop's estimates.  I'm guessing on the $5-7k for the hub and one prop.

My new prop finally came in last week from Macauley.  It took about 8 weeks.

[bradp]

Cody’s shop is not too far away.  

[jcovington]

Thanks for the experience in ordering new props. The lead times of 4 to 8 weeks is not what I wanted to hear. I guess I will have to live with it if that ends up the path I have to take. We have a trip to the Bahamas next month, annual is due in February,  ski trip in March and Sun'n Fun in April. The good news is I can rent planes from our local flying club so I will be OK. Not as good as using our plane but better than missing the trips. 

I called El Paso Aero this morning and they planned to tow the plane to the shop today to look at it. I haven't heard back yet. I will be back in El Paso on Wednesday and plan to stop by to see what they have found. Hopefully, more information then. 

I am pretty bummed about the whole prop damage tonight. I do appreciate all the support and information. 

Jim

[Cody Stallings]

Wow!

This is something that Happens with McCauleys if a blade is shimmed to tight.

There has to be a little tip-play in the blade or this will be the result. This is a more Extreame case nonetheless some propshop needs to step up to the plate.

If that propshop is mine, No questions asked I will handle it.