GDL-82 Install Time

[David_H]

Does anyone have any experience with install time for the GDL-82 system? I've seen install times posted online that are all over the place. The install looks to be a splice-in solution... which appears as if the time would remain somewhat consistent for several different airframes. 

The SkyBeacon or TailBeacon look to be attractive options... but the lawsuit with the not-so-friendly Big G is a little concerning. I don't know if it matters who wins in the end. It looks like Big G intentionally set up a chilling effect to ensure customers are afraid to buy into other products which could place uAvionix into financial distress. Worse yet, this could be seen as hugely discouraging for other developers who could bring competing solutions to market. It looks like Big G threw a legal wet blanket on the chances of anyone else bringing a product to market before the 2020 deadline. 

Perhaps it's best to just wait it out to see what happens in 2020. I don't really subscribe to the idea that much useful capability is gained with ADSB-out.

[jaylw314]

5 minutes ago, David_H said:

Does anyone have any experience with install time for the GDL-82 system? I've seen install times posted online that are all over the place. The install looks to be a splice-in solution... which appears as if the time would remain somewhat consistent for several different airframes. 

The SkyBeacon or TailBeacon look to be attractive options... but the lawsuit with the not-so-friendly Big G is a little concerning. I don't know if it matters who wins in the end. It looks like Big G intentionally set up a chilling effect to ensure customers are afraid to buy into other products which could place uAvionix into financial distress. Worse yet, this could be seen as hugely discouraging for other developers who could bring competing solutions to market. It looks like Big G threw a legal wet blanket on the chances of anyone else bringing a product to market before the 2020 deadline. 

Perhaps it's best to just wait it out to see what happens in 2020. I don't really subscribe to the idea that much useful capability is gained with ADSB-out.

ADS-B Out fundamentally gives you almost NO useful capability, other than MAYBE some decreased separation by ATC.  The only side benefit is being allowed to get all the available ADS-B rebroadcast traffic data, but that is a benefit manufactured by the FAA--presumably, at some point in the future, rebroadcast data will be made available to everybody.

For those of us that routinely fly through (or are based in) major metropolitan airspace though, there's not much choice.

That being said, installed ADS-B In also has little utility, since I think most information is better displayed on tablets than panel-mounted displays.  Still, this probably just comes down to personal preference.

[Jerry 5TJ]

GDL-82 does just “splice into” the coaxial cable between the existing transponder and antenna.  But it also needs a power wire to a new circuit breaker.  

Hours required vary a lot based on conditions.  

Say a customer shows up with an intermittent Narco AT50 connected with 40 year old contaminated dielectric RG58 to an antenna mostly attached by corrosion.  What could possibly go wrong adding a GDL-82?  

Access time varies too, with one job needing all the interior removed while another plane has everything in reach.   

[N201MKTurbo]

As much as I’m disapointed with the situation with SkyBeacon, I can’t see any way that Garmin is responsible for the situation. You can’t blame a company for protecting their IP. SkyBeacon is the one that wouldn’t lift a finger to explaine how they weren’t infringing. After reading all the documents It looks to me like they are infringing. 

[David_H]

1 minute ago, N201MKTurbo said:

As much as I’m disapointed with the situation with SkyBeacon, I can’t see any way that Garmin is responsible for the situation. You can’t blame a company for protecting their IP. SkyBeacon is the one that wouldn’t lift a finger to explaine how they weren’t infringing. After reading all the documents It looks to me like they are infringing. 

I'm not sure of all the specific details... but the end result looks to be obvious. A patent can be made general enough to essentially box an entire market in. I can't say I care for that approach when a govt. mandate is also involved. Stifling competition doesn't benefit the public or the aviation community. 

[carusoam]

Too broad of a patent sounds like a good idea when it first gets granted...

The company receiving the patent gets all excited... they covered everything...

Including some well known, ‘prior art’...

Then the over sized patent runs into problems... it might not be valid any longer...

Example... Company patents the process to restructure starch molecules... which covered using an extruder to heat and add moisture...

Only problem... prior art.  

Every house in the old neighborhood has an ancient pasta maker...  every kid has a play-doh extruder... aka extruders for starches... 

If that isn’t enough... the -eetos are all made in a similar commercial fashion... Cheetos, Fritos, and Doritos... 

waiting for the lawsuits to settle can take a really long time... impossible to tell which way they will settle...

PP thoughts only, not a patent attorney... 

Best regards,

-a-

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, David_H said:

I'm not sure of all the specific details... but the end result looks to be obvious. A patent can be made general enough to essentially box an entire market in. I can't say I care for that approach when a govt. mandate is also involved. Stifling competition doesn't benefit the public or the aviation community. 

That is what a patent is for is to stifle competition. That's the reward for inventing something is the exclusive right to produce it and make money off of it.

If SkyBeacon thought the patent was invalid, they should have had their attorney respond to Garmin's letters with such a statement, but they said nothing. That seems like they are either admitting that they are infringing, or are not sophisticated enough to realize what is required with respect to intellectual property.   

[David_H]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

That is what a patent is for is to stifle competition. That's the reward for inventing something is the exclusive right to produce it and make money off of it.

If SkyBeacon thought the patent was invalid, they should have had their attorney respond to Garmin's letters with such a statement, but they said nothing. That seems like they are either admitting that they are infringing, or are not sophisticated enough to realize what is required with respect to intellectual property.   

If it’s an innovative product that accomplished a tangible benefit and individuals are free to buy it or choose not to, then I would agree completely. However, the mandate Prohibits us from flying in certain airspace’s unless we purchase and install an ADSB product. I’m of the opinion that patents were meant to exist in a free market, not a forced market.

All that said, I’m aware that my opinion means very little to the groups mandating this solution to address a problem that currently doesn’t exist.

It would be nice to figure out an option that isn’t so intrusive to the flying account since there isn’t much of a benefit. 

[LANCECASPER]

6 hours ago, David_H said:

Does anyone have any experience with install time for the GDL-82 system? I've seen install times posted online that are all over the place. The install looks to be a splice-in solution... which appears as if the time would remain somewhat consistent for several different airframes. 

. . .

Perhaps it's best to just wait it out to see what happens in 2020. I don't really subscribe to the idea that much useful capability is gained with ADSB-out.

Splice-in solution plus WAAS antenna plus power and ground.

 

I flew into Houston on Saturday and having ADS-B out gave me the ability to see the re-broadcast of all the targets available with ADS-B in. Well worth it.

[Baker Avionics]

This is one of the easiest installs to do. We do it for about 10-15 hours depending on the accessibility.  It is pretty much an open and shut install.  You can also get various discrete inputs to fly anonymously and such to boot.  

[231MJ]

Greg, does the GDL-82 qualify for the $500 rebate from the FAA?  

[Baker Avionics]

42 minutes ago, 231MJ said:

Greg, does the GDL-82 qualify for the $500 rebate from the FAA?  

It does! Customers have been taking advantage of this for the GDL-82.

[MARZ]

I have the GDL-82 - did my flight today got an affirmative report and claimed the rebate.  The online FAA forms include the unit in their drop downs.

I took advantage of the anonymous mode switch and the ADS-B fault warning light with my install.  I know that the cost is something we all want to avoid - but during my flights up an around Conroe TX I find that there's a lot more traffic near than what I've ever been able to pick out without flight following (even with my dollar per sighting offer to my passengers)

IMHO -1400 bucks ain't that bad. 

 

 

[David_H]

Mike, what did the install run you “all in?” Of course all installs will be different... but it would be a solid data point.

[MARZ]

$1,900 for the GDL-82 / Garmin GTX 327 package (Oshkosh special)

$57 for the push to test amber light

$21 for the switch

$120 for the coax (personal preference to replace front to back) runs 4.60 a foot

$25 for the 4 conductor wire (positive, negative, ads-b fail and anonymous mode switch)

$25 misc coax connectors 

I pulled the interior and reinstalled -

@ Five hours worth of A@P time to wire things in and mount the unit and antenna

[Baker Avionics]

17 hours ago, David_H said:

Mike, what did the install run you “all in?” Of course all installs will be different... but it would be a solid data point.

Taking it to a shop "All In" should run you not more than $3500.00 IMHO. We do them for that mainly and that is with the aircraft coming here fully equipped, with zero prep work prior.  That SHOULD include all options.  

[David_H]

3 hours ago, The Avionics Specialists said:

Taking it to a shop "All In" should run you not more than $3500.00 IMHO. We do them for that mainly and that is with the aircraft coming here fully equipped, with zero prep work prior.  That SHOULD include all options.  

Thanks for the info Greg. I just had the transponder start acting up this weekend while flying around all these TFRs in the Midwest so the plane is in the local avionics shop now to see if the KT76A can be again resurrected. If the KT76A has had it’s last day, then that might change things.

During my conversation at the local avionics shop, they said the GDL system really wasnt much of a savings over the GTX335 due to the install times. I was a little surprised by the statement... but can’t speak intelligently about the install times either.

Feel free to send me a message if you have some ideas you think are worth looking into. It really seems like the Wild West with this ADSB stuff.

Edited November 6, 2018 by David_H

[Baker Avionics]

19 hours ago, David_H said:

Thanks for the info Greg. I just had the transponder start acting up this weekend while flying around all these TFRs in the Midwest so the plane is in the local avionics shop now to see if the KT76A can be again resurrected. If the KT76A has had it’s last day, then that might change things.

During my conversation at the local avionics shop, they said the GDL system really wasnt much of a savings over the GTX335 due to the install times. I was a little surprised by the statement... but can’t speak intelligently about the install times either.

Feel free to send me a message if you have some ideas you think are worth looking into. It really seems like the Wild West with this ADSB stuff.

Dave, click on my website below and fill out my contact form so we can correspond easier. (Not promoting my business either, it is for ease of communication)  I WILL still post here for everyone else.  I am not sure about the shop you have spoken to, however, they may have a different outlook than I do.  That being said, assuming that your KT-76A is still repairable, which it should be, their numbers do not add up for me.  I am pretty good at math and knowing that a GDL-82 install runs all in for around $3500.00 and the unit alone for a GTX-335 runs that without install tells me that the better option is the GDL for your solution, in my opinion assuming you ONLY want ADS-B out.  Questions to answer are: Do you need a WAAS receiver or do you have one?  Are you happy with your existing transponder in normal everyday operation?  

Knowing that our transponders are pretty much a "Ronco Unit" (Set it and forget it), the bells, whistles and pretty lights are neat, but if you are happy with what you have and are looking to be compliant and save for something a bit more advance in the future, go with the GDL.  For my customers that are NOT tire kickers, I will make up a spreadsheet for them with their options, give them a hard copy and we go over it line by line and I let them write notes on it and ask them to take a day or so, do their due diligence, and then reconvene. I want them to be educated of the ins, outs, goods, and bads.  I find that educating the customer is the most important thing in the world.  I have taken deposits for a certain brand of ADS-B solutions, just to have them come back the next day and change their mind for a better one of Brand X and we went from there.  I am glad we have time to discuss their needs, cares and concerns because you owners work hard for your money and it isn't wallet friendly by any means.  

Long story short, I have my suggestions for each customer and some are basic, some are intricate.  However, until I know the customer, what they are looking for and what they know at that time, I will NEVER throw out an opinion directly to them or give my bias until we are on the same page education wise.

Did this help?

If you seriously need or want more info, let me know.  I love talking shop so bear with me.  Make sense?

[201Mooniac]

On 10/29/2018 at 3:47 PM, David_H said:

If it’s an innovative product that accomplished a tangible benefit and individuals are free to buy it or choose not to, then I would agree completely. However, the mandate Prohibits us from flying in certain airspace’s unless we purchase and install an ADSB product. I’m of the opinion that patents were meant to exist in a free market, not a forced market.

All that said, I’m aware that my opinion means very little to the groups mandating this solution to address a problem that currently doesn’t exist.

It would be nice to figure out an option that isn’t so intrusive to the flying account since there isn’t much of a benefit. 

The thing is that patent does stop other ADS-B transmitters, just ones that want to reduce install costs by sniffing the xponder code.  To me that is exactly the kind of thing a patent should be for as it doesn't block the market, just makes your product more attractive.

Edited November 6, 2018 by 201Mooniac

[David_H]

14 minutes ago, 201Mooniac said:

The thing is that patent does stop other ADS-B transmitters, just ones that want to reduce install costs by sniffing the xponder code.  To me that is exactly the kind of thing a patent should be for as it doesn't block the market, just makes your product more attractive.

I don't think anyone is going to put any effort into re-inventing the transponder anytime soon. That only leaves picking up the existing transponder signal in some way. It's only a signal... so there is only so much that can be done after it leaves the box.  

Big G made sure anyone that had any ideas about bringing a low-cost ADSB solution to the market thinks really hard about it (or doesn't even try). That sure looks a lot like blocking an entire market to me. I can't see how that is helpful for GA. 

Edited November 6, 2018 by David_H
spelling

[201Mooniac]

19 minutes ago, David_H said:

I don't think anyone is going to put any effort into re-inventing the transponder anytime soon. That only leaves picking up the existing transponder signal in some way. It's only a signal... so there is only so much that can be done after it leaves the box.  

Big G made sure anyone that had any ideas about bringing a low-cost ADSB solution to the market thinks really hard about it (or doesn't even try). That sure looks a lot like blocking an entire market to me. I can't see how that is helpful for GA. 

You may be correct but my ADS-B solution doesn't sniff the transponder output to derive the code, it gets it from the serial port of the transponder so I don't see it as a blocker.

Edited November 6, 2018 by 201Mooniac

[LANCECASPER]

On 11/5/2018 at 2:30 PM, The Avionics Specialists said:

Taking it to a shop "All In" should run you not more than $3500.00 IMHO. We do them for that mainly and that is with the aircraft coming here fully equipped, with zero prep work prior.  That SHOULD include all options.  

No disrespect, but this product really makes a lot of sense for a very involved owner who is somewhat handy and a little computer savvy for the configuration. Then it takes some help & supervision and a sign-off from an A & P. But it should be able to be installed if the owner and A & P are so inclined for considerably less than $3500. 

 

[Baker Avionics]

27 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

No disrespect, but this product really makes a lot of sense for a very involved owner who is somewhat handy and a little computer savvy for the configuration. Then it takes some help & supervision and a sign-off from an A & P. But it should be able to be installed if the owner and A & P are so inclined for considerably less than $3500. 

 

Great idea and no disrespect felt!  I understand where you are coming from.  The things you need to know is that IF an owner and his A&P install this, which it is easy enough to do, Garmin will not warranty the install because it was not installed by one of their Dealers.  That is a good deal to get a 10 foot harness with the unit, however, the STC calls for it to be mounted in the tail section of the Mooney and I believe 10 foot is not enough to get from the tail to the instrument panel.  Couple that with the labor costs, at a Repair Station, possibly mounting an antenna and running RG142/400, with 6 RF connectors(with GPS), removing interior and reinstalling it, mounting an antenna, configuration and checkout, the time adds up.  No disrespect towards you, but you feel that 1800 for installation, configuration and checkout is too much?  Going rate is anywhere from $100-$125/hours in a shop.  By my calculations that is 18 or so hours to get it done for one person.  Now, if owners want to have their reputable shops only "break even" and not make ANY profit, I agree.  As far as configuration, you need the installation tool from Garmin to configure the unit. We are all in this together and I DO think it can be done by an owner and his A&P, just understand the other side that there will be virtually no warranty from Garmin, if I recall.  Not to mention, ensuring the AFMS, W&B, 337 and log entry are done correctly along with the proper checkout.  If you add all of that up, I think $1800.00 for labor of the installation, paperwork and misc installation supplies, special tooling for crimpers and accessing the needed areas, to include the existing transponder antenna and interior is pretty much a bargain and hopefully that facility can still turn a minor profit from it.  

I really appreciate your comments on this and respect the idea you brought up and it is very much doable, but, there is a risk and a sense of understanding one would need to ensure the accuracy of everything.  I am TOTALLY with you on the involved owner.  It is a phenomenal solution and I recommend it quite often.

[LANCECASPER]

11 hours ago, The Avionics Specialists said:

Great idea and no disrespect felt!  I understand where you are coming from.  The things you need to know is that IF an owner and his A&P install this, which it is easy enough to do, Garmin will not warranty the install because it was not installed by one of their Dealers. 

That would be a valid concern if it was true. However it is not true. The GDL82 and the GTX335 are available for direct purchase without install and the Garmin warranty still applies. (All other Garmin Avionics for certified aircraft have to be installed by a dealer.) Garmin confirmed this at Oshkosh in the seminar they did. The Garmin rep repeatedly said either of these two units could be installed by an A&P and the same 2 year warranty would apply. Aircraft Spruce's website also says that Garmin approves having an A & P install it. Yes a transponder check would haver to be done after if the transponder had been removed.

Garmin even posts the installation videos on YouTube.

 

[Baker Avionics]

Well good! Those are the things that are new and aren't readily shared by others to all. NOW all of the facts are out, that's great and still, clock the actual hours for me and let me know how many man hours it took and then let's do the math and understand the numbers. It is basically an easy install and will still take at least 10-15 man hours and maybe more 8f an antenna is needed. Either way, I personally have installed 20-25 of these systems and knows what it takes. I may not be the smartest person but I won't tell anyone that they are wrong when it comes to flying if I am not a seasoned pilot, I am a seasoned Avionics and Airframe mechanic and have been doing this for 30 years. Let us know what kind of HONEST man hours you log and let me know if it is under 15. I would be impressed if you are under that. 

If you need advice or the config tool, let me know. I would be glad to assist.