m20c first plane, Virtual Reality training?

[jjmango18]

Ok. So I’ve run through much of the forums before I’m asking this question. It seems like a number things have changed recently in general aviation.

 

I got my pilots license back when I was 18 y/o in 1999. I learned on a piper warrior. I really haven’t flown in the past 15 years. My log book has something like 100 hrs on it. Money got in the way. Now that I’m 37 I have some more disposable income and would like to get back into flying. I live in the northeast, close to Boston, MA. I’m a 15 min drive from Norwood, ma airport (KOWD). My mission is to fly my wife and I on weekend trips (as close as Martha’s vineyard or may be as far away as Montreal in Canada) with a couple times a year longer cross country flights. We don’t plan on having kids, so room for 2 adults mostly with the occasional couple in the back seat. I don’t want to rent because I like the freedom of owning (no minimum flying or adhering to a schedule). Here’s where I get stuck. I know the most “economical” route would be to buy a piper Cherokee (possibly 140/160/180), build some time and then get a mooney (m20c). BUT, if I was pretty sure I was going to buy a mooney … why not buy your second airplane first? What keeps jamming up my cogs is I recently got into simulator flying with x-plane and VR headsets with real rudder pedals. WOW. I know its not exactly like flying but because I already have my pilots license, I’m not “learning” any bad habits like other simmers who aren’t pilots and just fly. There is even a program called “pilot edge” that you login to and they have real-time ATC. It really is the future and it very cost effective instead of just flying around the pattern for $150/hr. They have very realistic models of Mooneys … I know, I know …  you don’t learn everything in a sim but it really does cut down on learning as I can really narrow down my procedures, talking to ATC, etc

 

Ok, after a long winded preamble … I’m looking to saving up some money in the next 2 years to buy a plane. Why not fly in the sim first, gain as much experience as I can and then instead of buying a time-builder  … I can skip that step and go to a m20c? Its the plane I really want. Yes, yes … I know insurance will be higher the first year ($1,800 … higher??) . I think eventually I would get my instrument too because I live in the northeast and the weather can be unpredictable. I’m looking to spend some where between $45,000 to $55,000. I’d rather spend more money upfront and buy a better airplane then sink my money slowly into repairs. Something with good avionics and a 2 axis autopilot … I don’t see flying single pilot IFR without one …

 

Ok … so … fly on the sim for 2 years and gain a couple hundred hrs with real time ATC and a virtual mooney .. and then when I’m ready, buy a m20c, find a good mooney flight instructor and get proficient. OR … tell me I’m crazy and I should still build hrs in my flight sim but get a Cherokee and build “real” hrs and then a few years after that get a mooney. Thoughts? It just seems like the future keeps creeping up on us .. VR will only get better as the years go by and training will be even more enhanced. Thanks,

 

John

 

[Hank]

I bought my M20-C five weeks after my PPL. I'd suggest renting a retract and getting the complex signoff while you are shopping, it will make it easier to find insurance, as well as cheaper. No need to do the Cherokee thing first if you know you want a Mooney. 

[Oldguy]

4 minutes ago, Hank said:

I bought my M20-C five weeks after my PPL. I'd suggest renting a retract and getting the complex signoff while you are shopping, it will make it easier to find insurance, as well as cheaper. No need to do the Cherokee thing first if you know you want a Mooney. 

This ^^^^.

There have been several threads on here about buying a Mooney either during PPL training or immediately after (or a couple even before!). The general consensus is do it with a qualified, good Mooney-knowledgeable mechanic who can perform a thorough PPI.

Since you have been out of flying for a while, get a medical first and get some time brushing up ITRW while looking for your Mooney. Once you find it, get some good transition training from a Mooney-specific CFI and plan on attending a Mooney Safety Foundation PPP for "graduate" level training. VR training is fine, but I find it does not give me the rush of adrenaline like flying ITRW. Somewhere in the back of my mind, I know a flat spin won't kill me, a bounced landing won't cost me $$$$$, and I don't really have to have my seat belt cinched up really tight when going through nasty weather to keep my head and the headliner from merging.

Good luck with your search. We are all pulling for you.

Welcome aboard.

[jjmango18]

hey guys ... thanks for the advice. Just to add to the VR thing and how "scary" it is ... Although I know intellectually that my a$$ and my money are not on the line if I crash ... when I first started using "pilot edge", I sat on the ramp for a few minutes nervous to his the mike. I got "yelled" at a couple times while in the pattern for interrupting a conversation. So shame works pretty effectively as a stress-inducing learning tool

[RLCarter]

Flight sims are great for procedures and working on Mic fright and/or phraseology but not much more. My suggestion is go grab a CFI and get your feet wet and once your comfortable with flying again move up to a complex aircraft (Mooney if you can find a rental), a possible issue would be spending money that would go towards purchasing.

 

[SantosDumont]

You are giving xplane way too much value, and really underestimating the costs of actually owning a plane.  The only thing xplane is good for is learning IFR procedures and simulating ATC interactions with pilotedge.  I use xplane to get familiar with navaids and terrain clearances on planned XCs but that's about all the real world experience that it is good for.

The maintenance on a 50 yr old M20C really isn't that much more than a PA28.  Don't fool yourself into thinking one is cheaper than the other.  They will cost relatively the same over time.  

Take the number you are planning on spending on maintenance per year and triple it... that is the real number you need to spend per year to keep a 50 yr old plane airworthy and in nice condition.  Acquisition cost is by far the least expensive part of owning an airplane.  Unless you're fine with joining the CB club and flying with 50% of your instruments INOP and deferring maintenance until you find some other sucker to buy your maintenance nightmare...  Don't be that guy.  Buy a nice plane and pay the money to keep it nice, extra points if you make it better than you found it.

[jaylw314]

PC flight sims are great assists for IFR training, but for basic VFR stuff, they're just not quite good enough.  I've flown with Prepar3d, and the views are great but there's a ton of information in real life that you're not getting in the sims:

• Peripheral vision
• Motion sensation
• Radio distractions
• Instrument distractions
• Passenger distractions
• Weather/icing
• Systems integration
• and so on...

Realistically, to shake off the rust for primary skills, you need to be flying, and flying regularly.  I can see an IFR pilot boning up on skills in a simulator (which is why they allow you to do instrument proficiency checks in them), but there's no substitute for flying

That being said, your idea of skipping the Cherokee is probably doable.  I putzed around in a flight club with a Cherokee for 6-7 years before I decided to move up, and I think that time was moderately well spent.  I had my share of troubleshooting, stick-and-rudder learning, crosswind landings and so on that you only learn with time.  If I was diligent, I probably could have gotten to where I was in 2-3 years, but life and money gets in the way.

So I'd still suggest the flight club route before buying.  The way I see it, you are not losing money with the monthly costs (relatively, anyway), especially for someone low time and with a lot of rust.

[MIm20c]

I have almost the same background as you. Same age and ppl back in my college years when I had no money or time.  It took me three years at the time to fly half as much as I have in the past year since purchasing my Mooney.  IMO the jump from 15 year old 152 time to the m20c was the perfect size jump. 

My advice, don’t put it off another two years.  Start looking for a nice used plane, crack open the old reference material, and utilize the sim for radio work. 

[DXB]

Welcome @jjmango18 ! Please skip Cherokee ownership .  The sim has more value for IR I believe - I doubt it will save you much time  or money for refreshing vfr skills given you already have a certificate.  The most time efficient approach would be to start shaking off the rust in a flight school trainer at the time point that you start your search for a good C model to buy. At that point, get your medical done and your BFR signed off in a 172 or whatever - I doubt it will take very long.  Simultaneously seek out and buy the best C you can. Focus on airframe> engine> avionics> paint/interior. Get a Mooney expert prebuy, find a Mooney expert transition instructor etc - there's tons written on those topics that can be searched on this forum. 

The C model is the perfect plane for your mission, assuming you want to be as economical as possible without giving up your soul in a Cherokee/172/etc. You are on a great trajectory to enjoy ownership and the freedom it brings to your life.  For comparison, I finished my PPL at age 42 and bought my C model right as I was finishing it. I refurbished the panel for modern IFR use in the first year of ownership but am just finishing my IR now at age 45.   It has been an adventure and at times exasperating to learn about ownership and maintenance (this site is a huge help), but i wish I'd done all of this much sooner in life. 

[jjmango18]

you guys are great. So you've convinced me to sell my flight-sim rig (all in, cost me $2,000). I think you're all right in that it really isn't saving me too much time. The best training is just getting in the seat and flying. I like the advice of getting current in a trainer and then search for good m20c. Seems like in the long run pipers are not that much less expensive than m20c to operate. @DXB Airframe and engine seem most important. Mind if I ask, when you redid your panel, what did you add? Cost? It seems like it's worth buying the best airplane you can find rather than updating it after you buy it. thoughts? @MIm20c how many hrs in the 152 did you have before you bought the m20c? Did you have a tough time finding insurance? thanks!

[carusoam]

JJ,

When it comes to flying... get as much experience as you can get... where you can get it...

You won’t be able to sub much sim training for real life flying...  but you can use your sim a lot more than you can afford to fly...

My Microsoft flight sim with the Mooney Bravo has plenty to work with...

An MSer with an Acclaim was selling his more serious flight sim around here a while ago... and so was our chief MSer a few years ago...

I also went to high school 15minutes from KOWD on Clapboardtree street, if you are familiar.  Bought my C when I was in my 30s.  100 hours of total flight time...

Do a lot of reading on plane buying...  find the info regarding pre-purchase inspections... lots to know.

Best regards,

-a-

[MIm20c]

2 hours ago, jjmango18 said:

 @MIm20c how many hrs in the 152 did you have before you bought the m20c? Did you have a tough time finding insurance? thanks!

I had just over 80 hrs of 152 time. Got my bfr/complex/and transition training in the Mooney I purchased. Insurance will be the same price no matter what type of training you do (unless you rent a lot). I paid around 1600 last year but the rates have gone up a little since then. 

[carusoam]

Insurance the first year is often a drag... An extra AMU for not having a year’s time in a Mooney...

Best regards,

-a-

[RLCarter]

An Instrument Rating helps on insurance, and it's the most satisfying/useful thing you can add to your pilot bag of tricks

[kortopates]

Follow your dream @jjmango18 and make the M20C ownership a reality. The sim is more distraction than benefit - the only real valuable sim time is with an instructor. You have plenty of hours, $$ and a good Mooney specific instructor is all you need. But buy the best C you can find. That is always the cheapest way to go even in the first year or two of ownership.  Since you want to become instrument rated, seek opinions on the value of the panel equipment that will be most important down the road as you consider what's out there. Until you get your rating you really don't know what you want or need and could find yourself growing out of your first purchase very quickly. Good luck!

[gsxrpilot]

There's some really good advice here. @kortopates has some particularly good advice.

I was in a very similar situation after getting a PPL and then out of flying for several years. I came back, got a medical, a BFR, and bought an M20C all in the span of about 6 weeks.  I flew it 400 hours over two years and all over the US. IFR, VFR, summer, winter, across the Rocky Mountains, etc. It was an awesome airplane to fly and cheap. I sold it to upgrade to an M20K 252. I bought the best C I could find in the country. It had an excellent IFR panel, and was well taken care of. This meant all it needed was gas and go fly. $55K should buy you the nicest C available. But make sure it has a good autopilot (Stec 30/altitude or better) and a WAAS GPS (GNS430W or better). 

Get a good one and the maintenance won't be much. Get one with an up to date panel and it will be good for years to come. After two years and 400 hours I sold mine and broke even on the costs. It basically cost me nothing but gas for 400 hours of flying.

Send me a PM and I'm happy to help you evaluate the C's you're looking at.

[Seymour]

Hey John, 

I struggled with a similar conundrum last summer and thought happiness could come if I invested in a kickin' basement sim setup.  While out on a long run, I met my ppl CFI for the first time since packing the handheld Magellan 315 with the flight bag into the attic a decade ago.  He mentioned a local opportunity in an M20E partnership and that pushed me back to get a medical, a lengthy set of refresher lessons, and a BFR in the old rental 172s rather than sink money into a VR rig.   My experience and mission is similar to yours (s/Vineyard/Block Island) and buying into the small partnership so far provides freedom from the constraints of rental aircraft but a very helpful cost sharing model for any hefty maintenance expenses; we'll see if those two theories hold...    

I highly endorse Hank's suggestion to complete the complex endorsement immediately after getting current and wish I'd heard that advice 6 months ago.  The partnership needed to change insurance companies for me and I'm footing a hefty first year incremental with specific restrictions on CFIs to train me (required number of Mooney hours).  

...and there's a Mooney Safety Foundation PPP in Nashua in early September (as recommended by @Oldguy to get your Mooney 'Masters').    I'd consider attending myself, but doubt I'll even have my 'high school diploma' by then so it might be too big of a leap.

If you identify a Massachusetts Mooney-specific CFI (or if you're serious about selling your VR rig), send me a PM with details; I'm still looking for either.

Dave

[bradp]

Sim doesn’t substitute but it does complement. I was in a similar situation to you.  I had a sim setup at home. I used the sim in areas where it was useful and I think it was super helpful for communications / learning airspace / pre- and post- flying lessons for reinforcement purposes.  In fact Keith (who developed / owns pilot edge) bore that company out of an idea for a training curriculum he developed on Vatsim (another virtual atc network) and ran with it.  I got into the ATC side of simulation and learned the entire 7110.65 forewards and backwards before I stepped into an airplane... this was all during grad school when I had about a $10k/ year income and minimal means to afford renting let alone owning an aircraft.  I moved to Boston after PPL and rented out of Hanscom and OWD. I saved up and purchased a J model in good mechanical shape to be able to travel to rural NC/VA and then Pittsburgh to visit my fiancée/wife (they were & are the same person).  

Agree skip the Piper.  Even for the benefit of the spar construction and steel cage I’d go with the C model.  Don’t worry so much about Carbs in IMC- plenty of planes have / do / will continue to fly in IMC with a carb. At least a GPS and wing leveler is required equipment, as is a backup standby AI somewhere in your panel.

You don’t need a full sim rig - although I miss using the simulator these days - but do keep simming. It does keep you proficient on instruments and the fidelity you get with xplane and ATC with a proper config is superior to any FTD you’d encounter in a flight school save a red bird.  

 

[jjmango18]

13 hours ago, DXB said:

given you already have a certificate.  The most time efficient approach would be to start shaking off the rust in a flight school trainer at the time point that you

thanks everyone. Looks like saving up for a good m20c is the way to go. As soon as I can, I'll get flying in a 152 and look for that mooney! I hope my post can help others my same age. I feel like there are many who learned when they were in their early 20's and then picked it up again 15 years later at the time VR rigs are coming into being. @bradp definitely the communication/ATC with a rig is super helpful. I think I'll keep my rig. I'll let everyone know when I start looking for my m20c. Great group ... thanks!

[DXB]

12 hours ago, jjmango18 said:

. @DXB Airframe and engine seem most important. Mind if I ask, when you redid your panel, what did you add? Cost? It seems like it's worth buying the best airplane you can find rather than updating it after you buy it. thoughts?

Avionics was the big weak point when I got my bird. I completely redid my panel, putting in an STEC 30 A/P, Aspen PFD Pro, JPI EDM900, GTN650 nav/com/gps, SL30 nav/com. It cost more than I paid for the plane, but I budgeted for it from the start.  Some would say I should have bought a J for that total expenditure, but it would have to have been a J with dated avionics and/or a high time engine.  And as a budget-minded new pilot, I loved the simplicity and relatively bulletproof nature of the J bar and the carb'd engine. 

If you are serious about the IR, try to find an M20C with a decent autopilot and a WAAS GPS already installed - this will certainly save you money. Not having WAAS leaves you unable to fly a huge number of approaches that are the most useful in the modern world, and an autopilot adds huge safety by reducing workload and makes long trips much more pleasant in general. But don't focus on these factors  at the expense of air frame and engine - you will never find the perfect 50 year old plane, and it will inevitably need work to make it the plane you want.  

An alternative is to buy a plane with a crappy panel like I did so you can build exactly the panel you want.  You are fortunate in that there are excellent avionics options emerging now that are much cheaper than what I had available.  The TruTrak  A/P will likely be STC'd soon for Mooney and comes at 1/3 the total expense for better technology than my dated STEC-30.  Hopefully the Dynon Skyview system will be STC'd soon also - having this available would have cut my total avionics costs in half.  

[Marauder]

On 4/29/2018 at 9:50 AM, jjmango18 said:

Ok. So I’ve run through much of the forums before I’m asking this question. It seems like a number things have changed recently in general aviation.

 

I got my pilots license back when I was 18 y/o in 1999. I learned on a piper warrior. I really haven’t flown in the past 15 years. My log book has something like 100 hrs on it. Money got in the way. Now that I’m 37 I have some more disposable income and would like to get back into flying. I live in the northeast, close to Boston, MA. I’m a 15 min drive from Norwood, ma airport (KOWD). My mission is to fly my wife and I on weekend trips (as close as Martha’s vineyard or may be as far away as Montreal in Canada) with a couple times a year longer cross country flights. We don’t plan on having kids, so room for 2 adults mostly with the occasional couple in the back seat. I don’t want to rent because I like the freedom of owning (no minimum flying or adhering to a schedule). Here’s where I get stuck. I know the most “economical” route would be to buy a piper Cherokee (possibly 140/160/180), build some time and then get a mooney (m20c). BUT, if I was pretty sure I was going to buy a mooney … why not buy your second airplane first? What keeps jamming up my cogs is I recently got into simulator flying with x-plane and VR headsets with real rudder pedals. WOW. I know its not exactly like flying but because I already have my pilots license, I’m not “learning” any bad habits like other simmers who aren’t pilots and just fly. There is even a program called “pilot edge” that you login to and they have real-time ATC. It really is the future and it very cost effective instead of just flying around the pattern for $150/hr. They have very realistic models of Mooneys … I know, I know …  you don’t learn everything in a sim but it really does cut down on learning as I can really narrow down my procedures, talking to ATC, etc

 

Ok, after a long winded preamble … I’m looking to saving up some money in the next 2 years to buy a plane. Why not fly in the sim first, gain as much experience as I can and then instead of buying a time-builder  … I can skip that step and go to a m20c? Its the plane I really want. Yes, yes … I know insurance will be higher the first year ($1,800 … higher??) . I think eventually I would get my instrument too because I live in the northeast and the weather can be unpredictable. I’m looking to spend some where between $45,000 to $55,000. I’d rather spend more money upfront and buy a better airplane then sink my money slowly into repairs. Something with good avionics and a 2 axis autopilot … I don’t see flying single pilot IFR without one …

 

Ok … so … fly on the sim for 2 years and gain a couple hundred hrs with real time ATC and a virtual mooney .. and then when I’m ready, buy a m20c, find a good mooney flight instructor and get proficient. OR … tell me I’m crazy and I should still build hrs in my flight sim but get a Cherokee and build “real” hrs and then a few years after that get a mooney. Thoughts? It just seems like the future keeps creeping up on us .. VR will only get better as the years go by and training will be even more enhanced. Thanks,

 

John

 

John -- I have a close friend who is a big time "simmer" including the ATC interaction. To the point I think he flight sims more than anything else in life. I think the values of these non full motion sims is they give you a chance to practice the procedures and techniques of flying but do lack in the area of flight dynamics. I don't think though any simmer has died from spatial disorientation due to listening to his or her inner ear.

When Jepp sold their IFR simulator, I bought it for practicing IFR procedures. It was bare bones but did hone my scan and single pilot CRM. The newer sims are adding a lot capability and certainly can help refine your skills or help knock some of the rust off. The shortcoming of these sims is that you won't experience the actual physical sensation of flight.

As for the plane, you will get a lot of advice on plane ownership. It is a big investment and can add so much to your life -- or it can be a dividing wedge in your family. Unless you are buying a new airplane with a warranty, you will be responsible for all that it needs. Search the site and you will see guys who bought a problem and are either dealing with it or have tossed in the towel. One such owner is a guy on my field who got a bad pre-buy (he went to someone he shouldn't have) and then ended up selling the C at a loss rather than tossing another $10k at the plane. Choosing the right plane comes down to what you want/need and the limitations of your funds. I have owned the same plane for 27 years. I am happy that it can meet the requirements I have for most of the flying I do on the east coast. And more importantly, it is not breaking my budget. Buying an airplane isn't about the initial investment, it is about the ongoing cost of ownership. That is where most get in over their head.

[carusoam]

23 hours ago, Seymour said:

Hey John, 

I struggled with a similar conundrum last summer and thought happiness could come if I invested in a kickin' basement sim setup.  While out on a long run, I met my ppl CFI for the first time since packing the handheld Magellan 315 with the flight bag into the attic a decade ago.  He mentioned a local opportunity in an M20E partnership and that pushed me back to get a medical, a lengthy set of refresher lessons, and a BFR in the old rental 172s rather than sink money into a VR rig.   My experience and mission is similar to yours (s/Vineyard/Block Island) and buying into the small partnership so far provides freedom from the constraints of rental aircraft but a very helpful cost sharing model for any hefty maintenance expenses; we'll see if those two theories hold...    

I highly endorse Hank's suggestion to complete the complex endorsement immediately after getting current and wish I'd heard that advice 6 months ago.  The partnership needed to change insurance companies for me and I'm footing a hefty first year incremental with specific restrictions on CFIs to train me (required number of Mooney hours).  

...and there's a Mooney Safety Foundation PPP in Nashua in early September (as recommended by @Oldguy to get your Mooney 'Masters').    I'd consider attending myself, but doubt I'll even have my 'high school diploma' by then so it might be too big of a leap.

If you identify a Massachusetts Mooney-specific CFI (or if you're serious about selling your VR rig), send me a PM with details; I'm still looking for either.

Dave

Mass has a really good MAPA CFII, complete with strong Boston accent... (iirc)

Don’t Skip the PPP training just because you aren’t ready yet...   PPP is personalized and can be adjusted to your specific needs...

I used it for remedial training back in the day.  Everyone else was there working on polishing really cool IFR approaches using radar...

A couple of days with a good CFI is incredibly efficient and valuable...  in between flights, is much like Live MS... people you know flying planes you are familiar with...

Best regards,

-a-

[steingar]

Odds are your M20c will have a crap panel, most do.  You're young, you have time.  Sims are useless for VFR.  Useless.  Get your airplane and go fly.  Where sims come into their own is training and maintaining IFR, which you should do shortly after getting your Mooney.  Flying at Mooney speeds VFR is dangerous where you live.  its dangerous where I live too, which is why I just dumped a crapload of money into my M20c to give it a semblance of a panel so I can do learn IFR.  Of corse, I didn't spend even a fraction of what some guys have tossed into their panels, but mine will never be mistaken for a video game either.

[ryoder]

I also went down the sim route thinking it would help defray the costs of flying and give me more confidence.  It was expensive and kind of a waste of time.

I bought my M20C a couple weeks after getting my private pilot and learned how to fly and land it in about 3-5 hours of dual.  The rest of the time was spent doing instrument approaches with the VOR and ILS.  Maintenance will be expensive.  Find a good inexpensive mechanic that will let you help with the maintenance and won't charge "shop rate" which is around 90/hour around here.  Make sure you have a very healthy amount of discretionary income before buying an airplane.  You can easily drop 5-10k a year in maintenance.

[jjmango18]

thanks @steingar About the VR Sim - the thing I find valuable is talking to ATC and IFR procedures. In the program pilotedge, there are "proficiency ratings" that you can get - Both VFR and IFR. For example, rating 1 for VFR is going from an uncontrolled airport to a class d one ... all the way up to rating 10 VFR is a Bravo to a Bravo. Then there are 10 ratings for IFR. I remember my biggest angst when I was flying 15 years ago was using the radio. I think this is where Simming works. Learning to fly - I agree nothing is a substitute for the real thing. Mind if I ask what you spent on your panel? Is it better to by a good engine/airframe + crap avionics and then build what you want in a panel? Think I could find something in the low $40,000 range with great airframe/engine and spend $15,000/$20,000 on good avianics (WAAS GPS and autopilot). Someone had mentioned Trutrack's upcoming certification for GPS and the Dynon Skyview. I definitely want to get IFR. I feel like the weather in New England is super unpredictable and everything everything is very congested. My plan is to buy the plane April 2020 (still need to pay off student loans). In the mean time I want to rent a 152, get proficient, gain some hrs, go to mooney specific training, etc