Mooney M20J VS Bonanza V tail or F33

[201er]

18 hours ago, DavidJ18 said:

Hello Mooney community. Its been few months I've been trying to compare Mooney M20J VS Bonanza V tail or F33. I have a budget of 130K to invest and i can not make my mind. i love Mooney M20J performance for speed, fuel and economy but my mission is to be able to travel in a long cross country and be able to take 4 adult at 180 pound plus luggage . Mooney M20J typically has a useful load of 880lb to 950lb. base on these number i've to compensate a lot on the fuel. VS Bonanza has a better useful load  and more roomy inside. This is just a once or twice a year that i may travel with 4 adult but most of the time would be 2-3 passenger. I would like to hear your expertise between these two beautiful bird and your thought for either or. Thank you so much. 

David

You need six seats to carry 4 adults cross country. You’re looking at the wrong type of airplanes. You buy a 4 seater for 2 people or 2 with kids max. Cessna 210, Saratoga, A36 is what you need to be looking at. You won’t buy a coupe sports car to drive the whole family on vacation in. 

[Kale McManus]

I just sold my 20 j and bought v35 you going to have to spend a little money on the  tip tanks but you get 200 pounds more useful load and helps cg move forward good amount something to  consider 

[DavidJ18]

I see. Without the tip tanks whats the average useful-load on the V tail Bonanza? What are the difference in airspeed in the J and the V? And may i ask the reason for your upgrade, was it because of the useful load and being more spacious? Its nice to hear everyone's input.  

[MB65E]

Well the cockpit is about 1in narrower on the Bo vs M20. But overall yes most would feel the Bo feels more spacious. 

-Matt

[DavidJ18]

Matt, Thank you. Do you think at cruise of 8000 ft the speed of the J and V or F would be relatively the same? 

[smccray]

22 minutes ago, DavidJ18 said:

Matt, Thank you. Do you think at cruise of 8000 ft the speed of the J and V or F would be relatively the same? 

The V-tail will likely be a little faster due to more horsepower.  If you compare the speeds on the 225hp Debs and V-tails they appear to be about the same speed as a J in the real world.  The IO-520 and IO-550 bonanzas are going to have 5-15 knots over the J, but it depends on the particular airplane.  Fuel cost per NM is going to be very close with a slight edge to the Mooney.  Research I've done shows the drag coefficients on the two airframes to be remarkably similar- meaning the changes to the airframes from antennas, other mods, dirt, will have an effect as well, but overall they're pretty close.  The difference is that you have the option to go faster in the Bonanza due to the bigger engine.  I would estimate that the Mooney is going to be cheaper to own over the life of the plane with the relatively bullet proof IO-360, and more simple airplane systems compared to the Bonanza.

[ArtVandelay]

The V-tail will likely be a little faster due to more horsepower.  If you compare the speeds on the 225hp Debs and V-tails they appear to be about the same speed as a J in the real world.  The IO-520 and IO-550 bonanzas are going to have 5-15 knots over the J, but it depends on the particular airplane.  Fuel cost per NM is going to be very close with a slight edge to the Mooney.  Research I've done shows the drag coefficients on the two airframes to be remarkably similar- meaning the changes to the airframes from antennas, other mods, dirt, will have an effect as well, but overall they're pretty close.

The J is 0.017, the Bonanza is 0.019.
By comparison:
172s run 0.030+, Cirrus about 0.024.

[DavidJ18]

Scott. Thanks you for your resourceful info.

[Rumblestrip]

5 hours ago, teejayevans said:

The J is 0.017, the Bonanza is 0.019.
By comparison:
172s run 0.030+, Cirrus about 0.024.

Interesting numbers, in the automotive world the Toyota Prius is 0.24, the Audi A4 is 0.23 and the Merc CLA is 0.22

[carusoam]

Where did you guys get your drag coefficients from?  Did they include the rolling resistance of the car’s tires and/or the drag of the plane related to lift?

In the automotive world, they probably have to account for the rolling resistance of the tires... somehow... ever push a plane with soft tires?  Lots of rolling resistance compared to nicely filled tires... tires like 255/40 VR16s (90s Corvette) have a pretty wide footprint and are pretty draggy...

Sitting a car in an aerodynamics tunnel and taking measurements would be the equivalent of putting a plane in the same tunnel and not accounting for the drag caused by lift. In the aviation drag increases as the MGTW is used.

When comparing airframes also compare the engines...

The M20J with an IO360 is a combination of speed and efficiency.  Putting an IO550 in anything adds to the speed column, but the efficiency is going to suffer, some... 10 vs. 15 gph...  150kts vs. 175kts... (roughly speaking)

If speed and efficiency are both important to you, the Mooney is your bird.

If the extra 25kts is important to you, get the Mooney with an IO550 in it. 

PP, wearing an engineer’s hat tonight!

Best regards,

-a-

[jetdriven]

A fair comparison of drag coefficients is look at a 285hp S35 Bonanza which can cruise at 172-175 knots while a 280 HP Ovation can do, what, 190kt?

[Alan Fox]

I own both , The Mooney is a good plane for economy , As far as a sports car , I have never heard of an Aerobatic Mooney ,  There are quite a few Aerobatic Bonanzas..... You be the judge.....The V-35 can have a CG Issue , when reaching 1/4 tanks , as fuel burns , the CG moves rearwards  The useful load on most Bonanzas is about 1200 UL , most J Mooneys 950 , Personally , I do not like running either at MGTOW ,  The Bonanza is a true 4 place aircraft , The Mooney is not ....  The V tail Beeches post 64 run about 175 KTAS at 7500 ft , The J Mooneys are about 155 KTAS at 7500 feet .... On trips shorter than 200 NM 20 kts is not a big deal ,   On 500 Nm trips the extra 20 kts is huge....  The Beech will burn about 15 GPH on the rich side , The M20J will run about 10 on the rich side ...     The Beech carries 80 gallons standard , the Mooney J I believe is 62 ,  Both can get extended fuel ,  The Beech fuel system is superior in that it uses bladders , they are cheap to service , and generally last about 40 years ....  You will NOT get that type of service from wet wings ,  The Beech is MUCH more comfortable in the front seats , and a Zillion times better for the rear seat passengers , It also has about twice the baggage space....  The landing gear retract systems are similar , electro mechanical , but the gear on the Mooney is expensive to maintain , as the pucks must be replaced every 10 to 15 years at 2000 dollars average , The Beech uses Oleo struts , which are superior not only in function , but as well as a maintenance......You will hear people say that Beech parts are expensive ,  The one positive is that the Beech is built better than every other GA aircraft and you are not using parts to the degree of most other aircraft , On a positive note , Mooney comes in a not so distant 2nd as far as quality build , So parts for the most part are not a big issue.....  People try to compare these aircraft Apples to Apples , They are not so similar ,  YOU have to decide what your mission is , mission determines the airplane ....  The budget at 130 will allow you to get a lot of airplane , I recommend you fly both for a 200 NM trip , and decide which is for you....... I will venture to say though , if economy is first on your list , I would gravitate towards the Mooney ,  economy should not be first on your list..... And fair warning , If you bring your wife shopping , she will make you buy the Bonanza ,  Also the Bonanza , is a much easier plane to operate and land , also a lot more responsive on the controls..... And at 550 lbs heavier (stock) you can stc it to 900 lbs heavier , It is a much more stable aircraft....

 

 

[Guest]

Alan,

This is a Mooney centric web site, you’re not supposed to say that there are better planes than Mooney’s.

Clarence

[ArtVandelay]

Pucks last longer on short bodies and less on long bodies due to the weight differences. I’m guessing short bodies last 20+ years, long bodies 12-.
We should do a poll.

[ArtVandelay]

How much are Beech bladders?

Not every Mooney needs a reseal, mine has been patched once and she is 40 years old. Hangared planes last much longer, every time I’ve seen a leaking Mooney, it sat outside.
We need another poll to see what the lifespan of sealant jobs is.

[jwilcoxon78]

On ‎3‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 7:14 PM, SantosDumont said:

I have 3 boys so we won't all fit in the Mooney (with the wife).  So my next plane is going to be a A36.

We've just had our second son and I've mentioned to my wife that we'd have to sell out all together or get an A36 if we had a third.  I really like my J!

 

[DanM20C]

2 hours ago, Alan Fox said:

he Beech is MUCH more comfortable in the front seats

This is the only thing I have to disagree with in Alan’s comparison.  If you are tall the Mooney wins in front seat comfort.  I love Bonanzas but at 6’3” I don’t fit well in the front.  In the Mooney I can slide the seat back in cruise and fully stretch out my legs without touching the pedals. 

Alan looked comfortable enough in @201er‘s video heading to the Summit .

What ever you end up with, get a CO monitor!

cheers,

Dan

[PTK]

12 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

At 6’4”/175 I agree, Dan. But based on the pictures he and @201er have posted, I think @Alan Fox is a bit more compact of frame, shall we say, than are you and I.

I’m sure I could adapt to the Bo’s cockpit dimensions just fine, though, if I wanted a big Continental powered bird. 

Jim

A bit?! Alan uses two seat pillows so he can see over the glareshield and double rudder pedal extensions so he can reach the pedals!

[steingar]

This has got to be the stupidest question ever asked on this site.  You get on the Mooney site asking which airplane to buy.  Duh.

[kris_adams]

4 hours ago, Alan Fox said:

 On 500 Nm trips the extra 20 kts is huge.... 

22 minutes difference on the 500Nm trip. 

17 min difference with 20kt tailwind

28 min difference with 20kt headwind

[201er]

1 hour ago, DanM20C said:

This is the only thing I have to disagree with in Alan’s comparison.  If you are tall the Mooney wins in front seat comfort.  I love Bonanzas but at 6’3” I don’t fit well in the front.  In the Mooney I can slide the seat back in cruise and fully stretch out my legs without touching the pedals. 

Alan looked comfortable enough in @201er‘s video heading to the Summit .

What ever you end up with, get a CO monitor!

cheers,

Dan

We flew to the summit in Alan's 201. And yes, I ended up buying one of those senseorcons. I was originally holding out to get a panel unit but when I discovered that they are less sensitive/accurate and I want to protect our parrots when it comes to low dose, decided that the portable unit is better.

[kris_adams]

and jftr I'd love to have an A36 to be able to carry 4 people much more comfortably

[Danb]

I guess it’s personal choice, my buddy has a bonanza and next door neighbor has an A36, I feel considerably more comfy in my Bravo than sitting up in there Bo,s, now he believes his Bo is more comfy, I’m not a big guy so that matters I assume

[mooneyflyfast]

4 hours ago, Alan Fox said:

, It is a much more stable aircraft....

 

 

Are you saying that a bonanza is more stable than a Mooney?  If so I disagree.. Mooney does not have the dutch roll that Bonanzas do and if you are hand flying in imc conditions and divert your attention to  look for your pencil or program an approach on the GPS you dont find yourself in a steeply banked dive at red line like you might in a Bonanza.

[ArtVandelay]

We've just had our second son and I've mentioned to my wife that we'd have to sell out all together or get an A36 if we had a third.  I really like my J!
 

Or get a TBM and have a 3rd and 4th