Was this 231 flown enough?

[pwnel]

Hi folks, would love to hear your opinion on this.  This aircraft is entering pre-buy tomorrow.  M20K 231, LB engine.  It lived in a hangar for at least the last 20 years, so there doesn't seem to be airframe corrosion and it was maintained by all the well-known (Texas) Mooney shops.  However, below are the hours flown - sometimes it seems to have sat for 18 months with <2hrs flown.  Engine compressions:  70, 70, 72, 62, 72, 62.  (keeping SB03-3 into account of course - so the compressions alone doesn't tell the whole story).

Am I looking at a hangar queen that has hidden headaches waiting for me?  What would your advice be on this engine?  Vref doesn't take this kind of data into account at all.  I'm intending minimum 50 hrs p/a and it hasn't been flown like that for more than a decade.   

 

 

[RustyNance]

At least it has flown 24 hours in the last 9 months.  At a minimum I would want an oil analysis and borescope inspection as well.  Have a friend that lost his C in a hangar fire about 6 months ago.  He found what appeared to be a pristine low time J and put a deposit on it.  Long story short, mice had invaded the airplane and the urine caused more corrosion than he was comfortable with.  He lost a little money but decided to cancel the contract.  He is now looking at a relatively high time J that has been flown regularly and so far is doing well in the pre-buy inspection. Years ago, I purchased a Stinson that had been not flow regularly.  Ended up replacing the engine in the Stinson.

V/R

Rusty Nance

[Yooper Rocketman]

I wouldn't necessarily be afraid of it.  You just need to do a good Pre-purchase inspection on it and it should be completed by someone very familiar with Mooneys.  I would do a pretty good flight on it as well, checking operation on everything.  Clearly the engine should be looked at closely (borescope, oil analysis, compressions, oil consumption, cut open the filter and inspect, and a good visual inspection for leaks or other issues).  Some planes can sit for longer periods and fair well, others... not so well.  I think it has more to do with the environmental conditions as much as anything (stored outside or in a hangar, location in the country like Arizona or along the ocean, high or low humidity....).

Tom

[N201MKTurbo]

Its lonely, it needs a new daddy!

[carusoam]

Not flown enough... to not be concerned...

Meaning... planes that sit don’t do as well as planes that fly regularly.

Lycomings tend to show challenges with cams...

Continentals have shown cam lifters to generate pits that carve the cam...

Part of the PPI should have an inspection to try to determine if this is a probability or not.

Look up the pricing to be aware of what an OH can cost.  Continental has a web site that has pricing on their engines.

If you like statistics, things are running in your favor.  Just don’t get stuck in the off chance that corrosion has caused a challenge before you take ownership.

If you are a gambler, be sure to be able to get an OH of things go south... don’t bet the whole house on it...

How does that sound?

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic... my first plane sat outside too long before I got it...

Best regards,

-a-

[pwnel]

2 hours ago, RustyNance said:

 Long story short, mice had invaded the airplane and the urine caused more corrosion than he was comfortable with.

Well, yes... Vref also doesn't have a line item for the impact of mice piss corrosion... :-) :-) 

1 hour ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

I would do a pretty good flight on it as well, checking operation on everything.  Clearly the engine should be looked at closely (borescope, oil analysis, compressions, oil consumption, cut open the filter and inspect, and a good visual inspection for leaks or other issues). 

Thanks, flew it for just under an hour - and everything works. But my ferry flight from Texas to New York will be more hours than this plane was flown for the 3 years from 2014 to 2017. It worries the hell out of me.

34 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Continentals have shown cam lifters to generate pits that carve the cam...

Part of the PPI should have an inspection to try to determine if this is a probability or not.

Look up the pricing to be aware of what an OH can cost.  Continental has a web site that has pricing on their engines.

If you like statistics, things are running in your favor.  Just don’t get stuck in the off chance that corrosion has caused a challenge before you take ownership.

If you are a gambler, be sure to be able to get an OH of things go south... don’t bet the whole house on it...

Thanks again folks.  I think most of us won't want a surprise $45k expense.  This is a financed plane - an unplanned overhaul will be a real mess.  

Ultimately I'm in the hands of the guy doing the PPI - Mooney Service Center and well respected.  Things like oil consumpion is hard to determine if you don't have a record of what was put into the plane.  Will make sure all the items you mentioned gets thoroughly looked it.  Thanks for the help.

[pwnel]

Another question - is it normal to consistently have annuals that end up being 14-18 months apart?

[MB65E]

3 minutes ago, pwnel said:

Another question - is it normal to consistently have annuals that end up being 14-18 months apart?

With the low utilization, that’s not uncommon. There is no requirement to have an annual inspection every 12mo. You can annual it at 9mo, 14mo, or 18mo, you just can’t fly it after 12mo. 

-Matt

[Hank]

I did my annuals every 13 months, fly 12 months then inspect. Moved my annual to the part of the year that agreed with my schedule. 

[kortopates]

24 hrs in 9 months should inspire some confidence if all those hours weren't from 9 months ago.

You can negotiate some decrease in engine value off the only 631 TSMOH if the calendar time since last overhaul is more closer to twice Continentals recommended 12 years. 

Just make sure before the Ferry flight that the fuel system is set up properly providing the required FF at redline MAP & RPM so that it doesn't have excessive TIT's at takeoff and in climb. That's the biggest issue we see with first time new owners of these. All it takes is a trip in pattern to assess. Continentals spec on this engine is 23.0-24.7 GPH and really you want it 0.5-1.0 above the high number or 25.2-25.7 at redline MAP which is 40" without an intercooler or about 2.5-3" less with one.  

[Bravoman]

3 hours ago, RustyNance said:

At least it has flown 24 hours in the last 9 months.  At a minimum I would want an oil analysis and borescope inspection as well.  Have a friend that lost his C in a hangar fire about 6 months ago.  He found what appeared to be a pristine low time J and put a deposit on it.  Long story short, mice had invaded the airplane and the urine caused more corrosion than he was comfortable with.  He lost a little money but decided to cancel the contract.  He is now looking at a relatively high time J that has been flown regularly and so far is doing well in the pre-buy inspection. Years ago, I purchased a Stinson that had been not flow regularly.  Ended up replacing the engine in the Stinson.

V/R

Rusty Nance

I think I saw the J with the corrosion from the mouse urine while it was in the prebuy. Did it take place in N. Ga?

[carusoam]

Pwnel,

Also put some dollars into a training fund.  Transition Training for this sort of plane makes a ton of sense.

ya know what I mean?

The skills and capabilities of the 231 are best taken in through a comprehensive training.  It is too easy to run into trouble while crossing several states in a day... (something you asked, reminded me of this...) 

Best regards,

-a-

[pwnel]

12 minutes ago, kortopates said:

24 hrs in 9 months should inspire some confidence if all those hours weren't from 9 months ago.

You can negotiate some decrease in engine value off the only 631 TSMOH if the calendar time since last overhaul is more closer to twice Continentals recommended 12 years. 

Just make sure before the Ferry flight that the fuel system is set up properly providing the required FF at redline MAP & RPM so that it doesn't have excessive TIT's at takeoff and in climb. That's the biggest issue we see with first time new owners of these. All it takes is a trip in pattern to assess. Continentals spec on this engine is 23.0-24.7 GPH and really you want it 0.5-1.0 above the high number or 25.2-25.7 at redline MAP which is 40" without an intercooler or about 2.5-3" less with one.  

Thanks again, overhaul was in '96.  So that's 22 years.  It's intercooler fitted, no merlin, no GAMI.  So the way I have it is 37" and 2700 rpm for the fuel flow you mention.

Insurance needs 5 hours dual with a Mooney instructor so I should be well briefed by then. Fully intend a MAPA PPP as soon as possible afterwards.

[gsxrpilot]

I would not want to be a buyer of any airplane that I couldn't afford to buy an engine if it had to have one. I don't keep that kind of cash sitting in a checking account waiting for the day. But I know I could pull a few strings and make it happen if it came to that. If I couldn't I wouldn't own the plane.

Buying an engine that hasn't been running much just raises the chances that that day might come sooner. It doesn't mean it will, but the chances are greater.

It's been said before, or something like this.

Be prepared to spend 10% of the purchase price in the first year on deferred maintenance.
Be prepared to spend another 10% at the first annual.
Be able to spend $5K on the plane at any moment.
Be able to come up with the funds for an engine on whatever day it needs one.

[carusoam]

Hmmm... subtle approach wasn’t well received.... feel like I should try again...

This happens around NYC often...

Pwnel, i’m Trying to be a friendly resource...

Insurance usually demands a certain number of hours in the plane to fly solo.  Then another number of hours to fly with passengers...

Five hours learning all there is to know about a complex, high performance plane that is capable of crossing the country at Indy car speeds...

You could be a pro pilot with decades of flying experience.  Or you could be 100 hours from your initial flight...  either way, consider getting some decent TT...

If you are highly experienced 10 hours covers a lot of the detail.  Less experienced 20 hours covers the rest.

You want to pick-up the usual experience handling the plane around the airport, the emergencies, and the long cross countries at altitude...

Can you tell us about your experience?

What does the panel have for equipment? Classic round dials and a gps? All glass with the latest from Garmin? Which are you most familiar with?

Best regards,

-a-

[pwnel]

18 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Hmmm... subtle approach wasn’t well received.... feel like I should try again...

This happens around NYC often...

Pwnel, i’m Trying to be a friendly resource...

Insurance usually demands a certain number of hours in the plane to fly solo.  Then another number of hours to fly with passengers...

Five hours learning all there is to know about a complex, high performance plane that is capable of crossing the country at Indy car speeds...

You could be a pro pilot with decades of flying experience.  Or you could be 100 hours from your initial flight...  either way, consider getting some decent TT...

If you are highly experienced 10 hours covers a lot of the detail.  Less experienced 20 hours covers the rest.

You want to pick-up the usual experience handling the plane around the airport, the emergencies, and the long cross countries at altitude...

Can you tell us about your experience?

What does the panel have for equipment? Classic round dials and a gps? All glass with the latest from Garmin? Which are you most familiar with?

Best regards,

-a-

Sorry, yes I totally hear you (long day :-).  Your comments totally makes sense - much appreciated.  Don't worry, I'm not a New York investment banker with more money than sense (with apologies to all investment bankers here)

Better idea to just disconnect the delivery from the transition training and not do that under pressure.  See if it passes the pre-buy hurdle first.

~300hr PPL+IF pilot, been flying for 11 years, busy with Com at present. Time mostly on RV7, C182s and Jabiru's (experimental) - very little retract time. 

Edited March 20, 2018 by pwnel

[pwnel]

PS @carusoam panel is 2x Garmin 480, MX20 and Stec 55X.  Nice setup and a big selling point for IF.  (I'm kind of sensitive to talk too much about this plane - don't want to negatively affect or offend the seller with my Mooney newbie open forum questions.)  My IF training was all on G1000 and around New York airspace (KCDW) so I'm comfortable with TAA, busy airspace etc.  If I do ferry that plane back it will be over at least two days, not above 14000ft and in VFR though.

[carusoam]

How long has it been since you did your IR training?

TT can be similar.  The firehose of information.  Great to be young when studying this way, not so great later-on....

My last TT with my Ovation was broken up into two days of short flights, lots of landings and emergency procedures... the third day was flying 1k miles across the country to get home... major airports, weather systems, IMC, and a touch of ice on the instrument procedure...

You know you are human when your brain fills up, and your landings aren’t getting any better... time to take a break... come back the next day...

We also have a few Mooney CFIIs if you haven’t been down that path yet... bring one from home to go get the plane. Or get one where the plane is and have him support you during your flight home.

It would make the most sense to fly home at O2 levels, LOP, checking weather along the way, knowing how to avoid ice.  Much better than wasting the opportunity to get the extra training, flying at alower altitude VFR...

Another good question... Is the owner an MSer?  That scores extra points!  Knowledgeable owners tune into MS often.

Good luck with your next steps...

Best regards,

-a-

[larryb]

These forums are chock full of folks who bought planes and then found major problems after they take ownership. And this is after a comprehensive pre-purchase. The thing is, these are 20 to 50 year old mechanical devices. They will break in expensive ways. That's just the way it is. PPI is no guarantee of anything.  My personal opinion is that if an owner cannot afford an engine overhaul at any moment then they don't have the resource to own the airplane. I'm not saying have the cash lying around, but  be able to get it and not lose sleep over it. 

[carusoam]

That’s what makes this forum different than these forums...  

Open, helpful, discussion, of real life, global, experiences. Shared...

Can it get any better than that when you are buying a 50year old machine?

Best regards,

-a-

[RustyNance]

7 hours ago, Bravoman said:

I think I saw the J with the corrosion from the mouse urine while it was in the prebuy. Did it take place in N. Ga?

Yep

 

[Guest]

If you’re worried about internal engine corrosion, have all of the valve lifters pulled out during PPI, it’s fairly easy on a Continental engine.  Pull the rocker covers,  rocker arms, push rods, push rod tubes and then the lifters, Continental has an SB covering condition inspection of the lifters and cam lobes.

Clarence

[mike_elliott]

10 hours ago, carusoam said:

Hmmm... subtle approach wasn’t well received.... feel like I should try again...

This happens around NYC often...

Pwnel, i’m Trying to be a friendly resource...

Insurance usually demands a certain number of hours in the plane to fly solo.  Then another number of hours to fly with passengers...

Five hours learning all there is to know about a complex, high performance plane that is capable of crossing the country at Indy car speeds...

You could be a pro pilot with decades of flying experience.  Or you could be 100 hours from your initial flight...  either way, consider getting some decent TT...

If you are highly experienced 10 hours covers a lot of the detail.  Less experienced 20 hours covers the rest.

You want to pick-up the usual experience handling the plane around the airport, the emergencies, and the long cross countries at altitude...

Can you tell us about your experience?

What does the panel have for equipment? Classic round dials and a gps? All glass with the latest from Garmin? Which are you most familiar with?

Best regards,

-a-

Well said Anthony, OP, please don't base your training on what an insurance underwriter requires from you, but consider basing it on what a well versed Mooney instructor and yourself feel your level of competency is during training. In the long run, you will be many $$ ahead and will also save a bundle on new underwear. Consider @DanM20C or @Kortopates if you get a 231. They own K's they know K's, both are excellent.

 

[jlunseth]

With the 231 especially, so much depends on how the aircraft was flown, specifically the engine.  If it was flown hot, you are going to be looking at a top in about 400-600 hrs.  Some of the POH settings are hard on the engine, and as Paul mentioned, if the fuel flow is not set up properly, that is hard on the engine also. Borescope will tell you quite a bit, but some things you just can’t see, like what kind of life the turbo has had.  Fortunately, the turbo can be replaced without extensive engine work, but it is still in the neighborhood of $3500. But when friends ask me opinions on aircraft they are looking at, the biggest issue I see is not usually the airframe and engine, its the avionics.  The panel has all kinds of do-dads, but they are obsolete and/or can’t be serviced anymore.  Narco radios, really old GPS’s, no GPS’s. A good WAAS GPS is not an absolute necessity, but you are going to have problems with installing ADSB mandated equipment in the next couple of years if you do not have a good GPS in the panel. You can drop $50,000 pretty quickly on a panel overhaul.  I just looked at an Archer for a friend.  Narco’s, very old VFR only GPS, six pack instruments in need of an overhaul.  He wanted the aircraft for IFR.  He was going to have more money in the panel re-work than the purchase price of the aircraft.

[pwnel]

5 minutes ago, jlunseth said:

With the 231 especially, so much depends on how the aircraft was flown, specifically the engine.  If it was flown hot, you are going to be looking at a top in about 400-600 hrs.  Some of the POH settings are hard on the engine, and as Paul mentioned, if the fuel flow is not set up properly, that is hard on the engine also. Borescope will tell you quite a bit, but some things you just can’t see, like what kind of life the turbo has had.  Fortunately, the turbo can be replaced without extensive engine work, but it is still in the neighborhood of $3500. But when friends ask me opinions on aircraft they are looking at, the biggest issue I see is not usually the airframe and engine, its the avionics.  The panel has all kinds of do-dads, but they are obsolete and/or can’t be serviced anymore.  Narco radios, really old GPS’s, no GPS’s. A good WAAS GPS is not an absolute necessity, but you are going to have problems with installing ADSB mandated equipment in the next couple of years if you do not have a good GPS in the panel. You can drop $50,000 pretty quickly on a panel overhaul.  I just looked at an Archer for a friend.  Narco’s, very old VFR only GPS, six pack instruments in need of an overhaul.  He wanted the aircraft for IFR.  He was going to have more money in the panel re-work than the purchase price of the aircraft.

True. It helps if the previous owner spent the money on the panel as it's never recovered in a sale (so the buyer has the benefit).  

But if the choice was between a fancy panel and a new engine (roughly same cost), I'd sleep better with a new engine.  A panel upgrade is completely under my control.  An aircraft that goes AOG in the Caribbean or somewhere 1000 miles from home with a busted engine ... not so much.

Btw, this is also where a EDM with stored engine data can be a real asset when it comes to telling the story of how the aircraft was flown.