Bad day for Mooney’s on Spruce Creek

[Steve Dawson]

Do my gump checks 3 times then say:

Please God, don't let me F___ up!

[PTK]

1 hour ago, bradp said:

.. when you have a root cause analysis what do you do? Chide the individual or look for opportunities for improving the safety environment by multiple modalities including policies/procedure and technology tools/advances? 

I agree with you. The goals of RCA however is to identify problems and devise methods to prevent them. That’s all well and good until someone is bent on intentionally bellying an airplane. All the rca in the world is not going to help.

 

[kris_adams]

I'm not meaning this to slight anyone that has had a gear up (there but for the grace of God go I...) but I have a hard enough time getting slowed down with the gear down.  I wonder if I come into the pattern "hotter" than most...gear and 1/2 flaps on downwind, full flaps on base (everything done on base)..."merely" flying on final.

I'm not saying I'm immune to distractions or anything else...a gear down could happen to me.

-Kris

[MIm20c]

5 hours ago, xcrmckenna said:

I don’t know where you got that from. I said I’m sure there are gear up landings that are intentional. If you want to assume I mean it’s a high degree of incidences that’s fine.


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Just say OK and move on   

I would feel a lot better about my own coverage and the future of lower rates for retracts if the owner was responsible for the first 5-10k of a prop strike.  I think someone said 30k was about average for each occurrence so the insurance is still pulling their weight.  I guess I favor higher deductibles for everyone. 

[MyNameIsNobody]

4 hours ago, bradp said:

Can also set up ForeFlight to do a “500” alert and with that a call and response.  “check gear down”. Would also recommend looking at the floor on the first gear check and keeping head outside the cockpit on subsequent (green light) check(s). 

Peter - it’s about individual responsibility and also providing an environment including technology that promotes safety.  It’s not an either or.  You’re in healthcare... when you have a root cause analysis what do you do? Chide the individual or look for opportunities for improving the safety environment by multiple modalities including policies/procedure and technology tools/advances? 

Did you see that pivot?  Rhetorical as it’s so obvious as to be absurd.  Peter is the classic contrarian.  He is an active troll.  He is the guy that loves the debate (even though his premise is ridiculous).  His motto?  Keep on clingin’. 

New PP or Peter premise: The majority of gear ups are due to pilots seeking to financially benefit from the occurrence.

Face palm.

[MyNameIsNobody]

2 hours ago, MIm20c said:

Just say OK and move on   

I would feel a lot better about my own coverage and the future of lower rates for retracts if the owner was responsible for the first 5-10k of a prop strike.  I think someone said 30k was about average for each occurrence so the insurance is still pulling their weight.  I guess I favor higher deductibles for everyone. 

With a 50% premium reduction?  Bring it on.

[Mark89114]

That is the problem with insurance, socializes the losses over everybody.  Would we be better off taking on more financial responsibility?  I would be willing to sign up for coverage that made me more responsible for my FU's, but right now I pay for everybody else.  Look what happens when we decided insurance was necessary for health care, costs are spiraling upward at a rate 10 times inflation, give or take.  I have high deductibles on my cars, willing to take the risk.  Same thing there, I got rear ended, minor scratch marks on the bumper but the other insurance company paid me $1400 as they said bumper needed to be replaced.  I am happy taking that money and squandering it on aviation.  If I would have hit something and my car was damaged this way, I would just eat the loss of value, such as it is on an 8 year old crossover-SUV.  What is your risk level?

  

[Yooper Rocketman]

Well, I got more info about the event this past Saturday.  While showing a friend around the Creek this morning we passed a hangar with a M20J outside getting some touch up painting done on it.  I struck up a conversation with the owner and found out he was flying in the pattern when the incident happened.  

Apparently while the Mooney was at midfield downwind (gear extension point) as plane three in a flight of three, his lead on final witnessed a twin on short final just above and behind a slower plane about to land. Since it was clear the twin could not see the plane under him and a collision was imminent, his lead called the twin to make an immediate go around to avoid a collision.  The Mooney pilot was distracted by this almost certainly fatal situation transpiring out his window, and watching the go around to ensure the runway would not have two tangled up airplanes resting on it, he didn’t realize he had missed his gear extension at his normal point in the pattern.

With some  speculation at this point, I assume he missed his double (or as some of us do, triple) checks as he continued in to land, probably being still preoccupied with how close he had come to witnessing a very ugly situation unfold before his eyes.   

Distractions were the most common theme discussed as we’ve all reviewed this incident since I posted it.  Listening to a friend of the unfortunate pilot as the story unfolded, it was painful to hear.  I told this M20J owner how helpless I felt, not having a radio close as I saw the issue 200 yards before metal was damaged   He commented he was surprised with the amount of pilots within view that no one was able warn his friend before it was too late.

Tom

 

[Stnelson903]

Out of curiosity, what's the best way for the owner of that Mooney to get the aircraft up off the ground and supported by it's own gear without causing additional damage. Have read a few stores of people using cranes and what not that resulted in a wrinkeled fuselage and more damage. 

Airbags under each wing and fuselage. Most wrecker services have them.


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[xcrmckenna]

Thank you for the update Tom.


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[MyNameIsNobody]

17 minutes ago, xcrmckenna said:

Thank you for the update Tom.


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+1 Tom.  I will take experiencing a gear up to witnessing a fatal midair if fate allowed those to be “taken for the team”...

I hear he was near tbo...Just kidding.  Too soon?  Probably.

[Yooper Rocketman]

1 hour ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

+1 Tom.  I will take experiencing a gear up to witnessing a fatal midair if fate allowed those to be “taken for the team”...

I hear he was near tbo...Just kidding.  Too soon?  Probably.

It was a pretty sweet looking 2004 Ovation (if I have my newer Mooney Models correct) so I REALLY DOUBT this was anything other than an incredibly embarrassing event for this Mooney pilot.  

(Appreciate your tongue in cheek comment though)!

Tom

Edited March 14, 2018 by Yooper Rocketman
Found manufacturer date was wrong (thanks “Deb”)

[steingar]

I always have my gear and flaps out by the time I hit downwind.  I figure there are more distractions in the pattern, so if I already have the airframe dirtied up I'm less likely to forget.

[bradp]

What happened with the formation flight of three... I guess it got broken off because of the distraction.   I only mention this because there  would have been a lesser chance of a GU landing in formation.  He must have been the last in and on CTAF not monitoring A-A - otherwise the likelihood is one of his buddies would have been able to warn him. 

[ArtVandelay]

Y’all talk about using positions like downwind or base as keys for your gump check , I’m betting most GUs are straight in approaches.

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, teejayevans said:

Y’all talk about using positions like downwind or base as keys for your gump check , I’m betting most GUs are straight in approaches.

I don't have any data to offer, but I've always thought it was more likely the other way around. Reason being is two fold IMO. In the pattern, distractions are common place from other landing traffic just as Tom explained above in this incident and secondly the pilot that manages their power/energy efficiently is never going to get all that fast in the pattern since they'll pull power back before they accelerate  once at TPA and therefore all the above talk about needing the gear to slow down doesn't even apply. Do this over and over again with some added stress and the chances of error seem to increase. On the straight in, its generally your first landing in some time, the checks are going through your mind for probably the last 5 miles in and you really are slowing down while descending and have significantly more time to notice something isn't right - if you aren't distracted by something else, At least those are my observations from spending too much time in the pattern with students.

  

Edited March 14, 2018 by kortopates

[DonMuncy]

I'm with TeeJay. In the pattern, we have a mantra we go through, getting where we are supposed to be with all the steps to configure the plane. On a straight in, I find it much more likely the tower will have me watching to see what traffic to follow, telling me to keep the speed up or other instructions, tending to distract me.

[gsxrpilot]

3 hours ago, kortopates said:

 Do this over and over again with some added stress and the chances of error seem to increase.

I'm with Paul on this. I don't ever like to do anything because it's "always" done this way.  I like to do everything as required, based on conditions, etc. It seems to me by varying the process based on the conditions at hand, I'm less likely to forget. 

Also, as I began to contemplate and plan the landing... which usually starts at the top of descent... I'll also start to think about when and where to "get the gear". If I have a right-seater, I'll verbalize the plan to them as well. Of course with the full understanding that conditions might warrant a change at any point in the process.

It works for me...

[Jim Peace]

On 3/10/2018 at 10:16 PM, tigers2007 said:

I do the GUMPS every time as it was drilled into my head when I was 15-yr old student pilot. CFI wouldn’t let me land if I didn’t call out the GUMPS when abeam the numbers. Do Mooney gear ups happen weekly?
 

We do gumps check in every GA plane we fly even if its fixed gear...

[FloridaMan]

Prior to flying retracts, I would always pull the mixture out about 1/4 inch, even if I was doing a low altitude local sightseeing flight in a 172. I developed this habit so that I'd have something to do when returning to the airport environment, and I'd kick myself when I'd forget. I also don't set my takeoff flaps until after doing my runup checklist. When I turn onto the runway, I verify flaps, trim, fuel selector; if my flaps aren't set, I missed the checklist stage, which I can't recall ever happening outside of high workload training flights. 

Even so, there were two incidents where I came close. Once, after flying for 12 hours above 11,000 feet with about 50 hours total in my M20F, coming into ABQ I was in the flare and thought "oh fuck, my gear!" Fortunately I'd dropped it early in the approach to help me get down after clearing the mountain to the east. The second was at F45 (North County just north of West Palm Beach, FL). There was a student in a helicopter on the comms who wasn't exactly sure where he was in relation to the airport and a 172 on a 5 mile final. The 172 called out for me to go ahead of him. I kept gaining speed and couldn't figure out why. Then I reached to do my fingernail check and caught that my gear was still up. 

I have landed the rocket a couple times forgetting to retract the speed brakes and I believe speed brakes could put me at increased risk, though I have a solid habit of checking the gear down light as I cross the threshold and reviewing that I had previously checked the football in the floor. 

[Jerry 5TJ]

On 3/13/2018 at 6:41 PM, Yooper Rocketman said:

....  I told this M20J owner how helpless I felt, not having a radio close as I saw the issue 200 yards before metal was damaged   He commented he was surprised with the amount of pilots within view that no one was able warn his friend before it was too late.....

One quiet evening about 25 years ago as I taxied towards the active runway at O69 I saw a Mooney on short final with gear still retracted.   I keyed the mike and said, stressing each word, ”Mooney At Petaluma Your Landing Gear Is Up!”

He went around.  Never said a word about the warning.  Embarrassed I guess.  

[drapo]

1 hour ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

One quiet evening about 25 years ago as I taxied towards the active runway at O69 I saw a Mooney on short final with gear still retracted.   I keyed the mike and said, stressing each word, ”Mooney At Petaluma Your Landing Gear Is Up!”

He went around.  Never said a word about the warning.  Embarrassed I guess.  

That one reminds me of my early days as an ATC in Québec city tower. Québec had a mix of airlines, commuters, GA and training trafic. I was working ground, Serge, a senior and gifted controller was working the air mike. On initial call, a BA11 was told to reduce from 10 miles out, as he was #4 to a Cessna on base and a Medevac flight had to depart. He never reduced and was overshot and changed to Terminal for another approach.

On the second approach, he sounded disgruntled on his initial call and was told #2 behind Cessna on final. Later on he was cleared to land. As he was over the approach lights, Serge, with his firm and steady voice told the pilot « Pull up and go around NOW! », the pilot replied: « What now tower, I don’t see anyone ahead of me or on the runway » Serge replied, calm and cool « Yeah but your wheels are UP! » . The third attempt was quiet and uneventful, he too never said a word about it, embarassed I guess...